Need Resources !!!

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Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:51 pm

There's an atheist on Heavy Harmonies.com who asked me to logically prove God exists- he says he believes in Jesus, but only as in a guy who walked the earth 2,000 years ago. I need some help, as I have no idea how to do this alone- I guess I can't. Anyone worked with atheists before? Mountain Man, weren't you talking about that stuff awhile back with someone else? And I know that brent is good at arguing :wink:

Although I'm not arguing exactly, just need simple points and evidence that some of you have found perhaps, to show to this dude. Shell, you may have something to say, too. Anyone with info I can use on this guy will be helpful! Thanks to anyone who contributes :P
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:46 pm

So he seems eager to hear what I got to say, haven't said anything yet, but he's all ears when I'm ready- at least God seems to be preparing him for what I get to say when I get to saying it 8)
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Mountain Man » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:37 pm

Be careful. It's very rare to find an open-minded atheist who is truly willing to listen to and contemplate on the arguments and evidence for God, and you need be careful you're not getting sucked into a debate where he just wants to try and browbeat your faith out of you. I've encountered plenty of those kinds of atheists on the internet, and their primary tools are ignorance and ridicule.

But logically proving God's existence is a big question that's a lot easier to ask than it is to answer (and I suspect he knows that). It's not unanswerable, but the answer can be fairly complex and takes a lot of explanation. Dr. William Lain Craig wrote a whole essay about it which I recommend titled The New Atheism and Five Arguments For God. In this essay, Craig presents five logically sound arguments for God's existence, but the explanations to support each argument are quite lengthy and complex (although Craig does an excellent job making them understandable).

I point this out only because if your atheist friend is expecting a quick and easy answer then he's going to be disappointed, and I doubt he will have any interest in digging through a piece like Craig's. Perhaps I'm wrong, and he is genuinely interested in finding answers. I've been debating theology on the internet for almost two-decades, so I admit that I'm probably a bit jaded, but in my experience, most atheists just want to keep asking questions until they stump you or you can't answer to their satisfaction, and then they declare victory. They rarely want answers, just more excuses to continue disbelieving ("Ha! That Christian couldn't answer my question, so my disbelief in God is justified!").

Theological debate, especially on the internet, can be a pretty rough business, so you want to be prepared.
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:37 pm

Mountain Man wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:37 pm
Be careful. It's very rare to find an open-minded atheist who is truly willing to listen to and contemplate on the arguments and evidence for God, and you need be careful you're not getting sucked into a debate where he just wants to try and browbeat your faith out of you. I've encountered plenty of those kinds of atheists on the internet, and their primary tools are ignorance and ridicule.

But logically proving God's existence is a big question that's a lot easier to ask than it is to answer (and I suspect he knows that). It's not unanswerable, but the answer can be fairly complex and takes a lot of explanation. Dr. William Lain Craig wrote a whole essay about it which I recommend titled The New Atheism and Five Arguments For God. In this essay, Craig presents five logically sound arguments for God's existence, but the explanations to support each argument are quite lengthy and complex (although Craig does an excellent job making them understandable).

I point this out only because if your atheist friend is expecting a quick and easy answer then he's going to be disappointed, and I doubt he will have any interest in digging through a piece like Craig's. Perhaps I'm wrong, and he is genuinely interested in finding answers. I've been debating theology on the internet for almost two-decades, so I admit that I'm probably a bit jaded, but in my experience, most atheists just want to keep asking questions until they stump you or you can't answer to their satisfaction, and then they declare victory. They rarely want answers, just more excuses to continue disbelieving ("Ha! That Christian couldn't answer my question, so my disbelief in God is justified!").

Theological debate, especially on the internet, can be a pretty rough business, so you want to be prepared.
Thank you! I understand, it is. I do realize that the best way to go about it is reversing the burden of proof. But I think while he is very cooperative, he at least wants something intriguing, so, he probably wouldn't want to dig into something of Craig's. I'm doing a bunch of research. I'll read the article, I'm also looking at Stand To Reason.org- they have some stuff that is really really helpful and they organized the conference that I went to. I'm really confident in this, and I know that this is really important, more so than others think.
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Mountain Man » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:52 am

My approach to public debate is that I'm not trying to change the mind of my opponent but to change the mind of any interested third-party who might be listening/reading. Most people who enter a debate are there to defend their ideas rather than to be convinced that their ideas are wrong.
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:48 am

Yes, true- in this case it's the opposite, though. The guy here wants me to prove it. He said he thinks his ideas are stupid kind of but he also needs proof that God exists. But he's been told about at least 100 times, and all those people never succeeded- I can't fail him too. . . .
Everyone else in the thread thinks Christianity is stupid and that I won't change the dudes mind, and even not to waste my time. Looks like they're gonna me the ones wasting time- not me.
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Mountain Man » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:56 pm

Well, best of luck, and I hope the Craig article is helpful. We are only called to scatter the seed. It is the Holy Spirit's job to see that it takes root and grows.
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:47 pm

Yes! :mrgreen:
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:51 pm

More help please!! Another guy has joined the conversation (many have actually) and he's in the usual situation where he was a believer and then he prayed and prayed and people died, his wife, babies, he was bullied as a kid, became depressed, all these things, and he's given up on God. I know somewhat how to talk to him, and I have asked my friend who's in a Bible College right now and she can help a lot, but everyone has different experience talking with different kinds of people. Thanks to anyone who helps! :P :|
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by curt » Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:16 pm

Mountain Man wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:37 pm
Be careful. It's very rare to find an open-minded atheist who is truly willing to listen to and contemplate on the arguments and evidence for God, and you need be careful you're not getting sucked into a debate where he just wants to try and browbeat your faith out of you. I've encountered plenty of those kinds of atheists on the internet, and their primary tools are ignorance and ridicule.

But logically proving God's existence is a big question that's a lot easier to ask than it is to answer (and I suspect he knows that). It's not unanswerable, but the answer can be fairly complex and takes a lot of explanation. Dr. William Lain Craig wrote a whole essay about it which I recommend titled The New Atheism and Five Arguments For God. In this essay, Craig presents five logically sound arguments for God's existence, but the explanations to support each argument are quite lengthy and complex (although Craig does an excellent job making them understandable).

I point this out only because if your atheist friend is expecting a quick and easy answer then he's going to be disappointed, and I doubt he will have any interest in digging through a piece like Craig's. Perhaps I'm wrong, and he is genuinely interested in finding answers. I've been debating theology on the internet for almost two-decades, so I admit that I'm probably a bit jaded, but in my experience, most atheists just want to keep asking questions until they stump you or you can't answer to their satisfaction, and then they declare victory. They rarely want answers, just more excuses to continue disbelieving ("Ha! That Christian couldn't answer my question, so my disbelief in God is justified!").

Theological debate, especially on the internet, can be a pretty rough business, so you want to be prepared.
I note that you do not mention any examples of atheists who were interesting to debate with, who had goods point you learned from though you still disagreed or anything along those lines. How does your approach to them differ from the approach you claim they have?
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by George Harrison » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:54 pm

Diehardpetrafan:) wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:51 pm
More help please!! Another guy has joined the conversation (many have actually) and he's in the usual situation where he was a believer and then he prayed and prayed and people died, his wife, babies, he was bullied as a kid, became depressed, all these things, and he's given up on God. I know somewhat how to talk to him, and I have asked my friend who's in a Bible College right now and she can help a lot, but everyone has different experience talking with different kinds of people. Thanks to anyone who helps! :P :|
At this point I may as well just join the forum and help you😂

Well, firstly, they should know that you are young, because honestly who would expect a young person your age to win a debate with multiple adults?

The reason there is death in the world is because humans have made the choice to sin, and the wages of sin is death. Humanity was made perfect and without suffering, but in the garden of eden they chose sin and evil. God loves us, but it is not his duty to save us from the choices we willingly made, because if he did this then we wouldn't even be able to choose our own path, we'd be nothing more than puppets. In many cases he does supernaturally heal people, but perhaps it was best for this to happen anyway. You can't predict the future, no one knows what is best but one who is all knowing, only God is all knowing.

God wants to save all of us from eternal death, he wants to give us eternal life in a place far better than earth. That's why he died to save us from the consequences of our sins. On earth there is still suffering, but in heaven only joy.
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:59 pm

I've started both conversations in separate messages by asking them each a question. I'm doing a study into each thing. I know now how to help each of them, but moreso the guy who gave up. This atheist stuff is gonna be a lot of understanding, but it's surprisingly not quite as hard as I thought- exactly. They know how old I am, but I still don't think it'll be too too hard to do this, as questions that they'll have to answer are the main tactic.
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:26 pm

Diehardpetrafan:) wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:51 pm
More help please!! Another guy has joined the conversation (many have actually) and he's in the usual situation where he was a believer and then he prayed and prayed and people died, his wife, babies, he was bullied as a kid, became depressed, all these things, and he's given up on God. I know somewhat how to talk to him, and I have asked my friend who's in a Bible College right now and she can help a lot, but everyone has different experience talking with different kinds of people. Thanks to anyone who helps! :P :|
Death, unfortunately, is a fact of life. My wife of 25-years died six-months ago after a two-year battle with cancer, so I know the heartache this world can bring. I prayed for her everyday, asked that she be miraculously healed, and she still died. Did God fail me? Of course not. First of all, God never promised us perfection on earth. And secondly, this life is not all there is. God did heal my wife, but he did it by giving her the perfect body that all Christians are promised in heaven. I miss her, and I sometimes ask God why he took her even though I know she's way better off in heaven than I am here on earth... but give up on God? Why would I, when he's never given up on me? His mercies are renewed every morning, and God knows I need it!

I'm not sure this helps you any, and it's not the kind of argument that's going to slay your opponent in a debate, but that's my story, and I'm sticking with it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:05 pm

Mountain Man wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:26 pm
Death, unfortunately, is a fact of life. My wife of 25-years died six-months ago after a two-year battle with cancer, so I know the heartache this world can bring. I prayed for her everyday, asked that she be miraculously healed, and she still died. Did God fail me? Of course not. First of all, God never promised us perfection on earth. And secondly, this life is not all there is. God did heal my wife, but he did it by giving her the perfect body that all Christians are promised in heaven. I miss her, and I sometimes ask God why he took her even though I know she's way better off in heaven than I am here on earth... but give up on God? Why would I, when he's never given up on me? His mercies are renewed every morning, and God knows I need it!

I'm not sure this helps you any, and it's not the kind of argument that's going to slay your opponent in a debate, but that's my story, and I'm sticking with it. :mrgreen:
That is another great reason! Once he answers me back and gives me some reasons he thinks God isn't good I'll have some reasons to disprove those answers of his :mrgreen:

Thank you!! Both of you helped me quite a bit- and if you've got anything more to say it's welcome! 8)
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Re: Need Resources !!!

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Fri Dec 06, 2019 9:45 pm

It's on!! The debate is on, and already I think I'm winning- he can't possibly tell me how nothing comes from absolutely nothing :lol:
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