CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Mountain Man » Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:15 am

curt wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:55 pm
Mountain Man wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:13 am
curt wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:53 am
Mountain Man wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:55 am
Christianity Today isn't the magazine that Billy Graham founded. In fact, Graham voted for and supported Trump.
Depending on who you ask...
Nope, it's not an opinion. It's a fact that Billy Graham voted for and supported Trump. Quoting Franklin Graham, his son:

"Christianity Today released an editorial stating that President Trump should be removed from office—and they invoked my father’s name (I suppose to try to bring legitimacy to their statements), so I feel it is important for me to respond. Yes, my father Billy Graham founded Christianity Today; but no, he would not agree with their opinion piece. In fact, he would be very disappointed. I have not previously shared who my father voted for in the past election, but because of this article, I feel it is necessary to share it now. My father knew Donald Trump, he believed in Donald Trump, and he voted for Donald Trump. He believed that Donald J. Trump was the man for this hour in history for our nation."

https://www.facebook.com/FranklinGraham ... ?__tn__=-R
And others from that family have other impressions. I see no point in claiming any of that to be facts we can know with certainty. And what we certainly cannot know is what Billy Graham would have thought about stuff that happened after his death.

So, like I said, people connected to him have different ideas about what he would have thought about Trump. Even if he voted for him it is no guarante that he would have continued to support him.

Merry Christmas
I would take the word of a man's son over that of his extended family any day.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time debating this (in fact, this will probably be my last post on the subject here since I've discussed it ad nauseam at another more politically minded forum), but the case against Trump is somewhere between weak and non-existent. Not a single firsthand witness was able to testify that Trump did anything improper or illegal, and Gordan Sondland, the only person to testify who spoke directly to the President, said under oath that the President did not want what everybody is accusing him of wanting. In fact, the Democrat case is so weak that they're refusing to send the articles of impeachment to the Senate for adjudication and are instead sitting on them in the desperate hope that they'll be able to use articles as leverage to find evidence to support the articles.

Now whatever you may think about Trump's personal moral choices, there is nothing righteous or Christian about celebrating the Democrat party ignoring the rule of law and due process in order to run a duly elected president out of office -- and remember, the Democrats have been whooping and hollering for impeachment since before Trump was even inaugurated. As one commentator put it, if the Federal government can trample on the rights of the President of the United States, then what's to stop them from trampling on ours?
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:37 pm

I agree.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by curt » Thu Dec 26, 2019 3:21 am

I can see why one would take the word of Graham’s son over that of other members from the family. The fact however remains that this is not anything we can claim to be facts. It seems to me that Franklin has travelled very far in the direction of associating Evangelical Christians with a particular politician. I have seen many examples of him and other Evangelicals having a very hard time seeing the difference between politics and theology while at other times those differences are stretched to the degree that it is ok to separate children from their parents and put them in cages because Jesus’ words on how we should treat the least of these does not apply to the state. Thus they promote what is an amoral nihilism when it comes to state level.

I do not agree with the rather partisan and one sided description of what Trump is accused of. Neither do i think it is fitting for the president to call Christianity Today a “far left” magazine. One should keep in mind that this is not about removing Trump to pave the way for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama. The rather naive idea that you have to team up with Democrats if you find Trump unfitting is simple based on the wrong idea that you have to support Trump all the way in order to support Christian ideas and ideal in the fight against pro life Democrats. First of all compromising basic ideas about having to speak the truth which Trump very often fails to do will lead you in the wrong direction. Plenty of people who have worked for Trump are in prison. Second, it is not the Democrats who will take over if Trump is removed, it is Mike Pence. That is a very simple truth and the fact that some are so concerned with giving the impression that this is not what is going to happen should give you an idea that their agenda perhaps is not as honest and truthful as it may seem. People ask for integrity, lawfulness and honesty of Trump. And to his defence people lie about what is going to happen if they question his integrity.

There seems to be a false idea that one has to support Trump all the way based on his pro life stance and what he has done in support for Christian ideas and ideal. I think that is rather limited. I like this short summary of the deal Trump seemingly made with Evangelicals: “Evangelical Christians will be given rhetorical deference, White House access and judges and regulations of their liking. All they need to do is set aside their criticisms of cruelty, deception, misogyny, racism and contempt for the vulnerable. All they need to do is forget decency and moral consistency.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html

Trump recently joked about a person being in hell. He has a reputation for calling people nick names, making statements that many people find racist and he repeatedly lies. He has used very kind words about the North Korean leader who runs concentration camps and starves his own people to death. Read it one more time of you need to. Don’t let your first approach be to find an excuse. Actually think about this.

It is one thing to accept Trump as a compromise in an imperfect world. It is another thing to present it, or him, as a person one cannot question. If you actually read Christianity Today you will see that this is not only a question about politics. They are making the point that he seems to lack moral integrity to the degree that he is simply unfitting to be the president.

Merry Christmas and the very best wishes for all of you
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Mountain Man » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:51 am

Trump can be a boor. I don't think anybody can legitimately dispute that. But he has not done anything that would warrant his impeachment and removal from office. And if you think the Democrats would stop at Trump, you're naive. They've already hinted that once Trump is out of the way that they'll turn their eyes on Pence and charge him as an accessory, and Pence doesn't have the stomach for a fight like Trump does, so I could picture him choosing to resign instead of allowing himself and his family to be drug through the mud. And then we'll have President Nancy Pelosi. And at that point, I wouldn't put it past the Democrats to nominate Hillary to be VP, and then Pelosi would resign as president, and then...
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:37 pm

Mountain Man, that's exactly what I've been thinking… Jesus has got to be coming soon.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by curt » Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:27 am

Well, first of all it seems he could have done quite a lot that would warrant his impeachment, and I think CT has a very fair point when they state that a person who repeatedly lies and contradicts himself is unfit. Among many other absurdities we are talking about a man who separated completely innocent children from their parents and put them in cages. We are talking about a man who talked in very favourable terms about a man who runs concentration camps and starves people to death. Among so many other absurdities.

The idea that we should limit ourselves to criticize it lightly in order not to support the Democrats is absurd. Anyone who gives up fair self criticism is doomed to fail. The idea one should not acknowledge fair criticism for what it is based on more or less speculative ideas about what Democrats would do is a very dangerous path to follow because it leads to the double standards of not addressing own problems fairly.

Your speculation about what would happen with Pence is a rather naive justification for shutting down criticism. First of all he must be able to defend himself. If he does not have the stomach for that I fail to see how he can be the vice President. And your speculation about what might happen to him and how he might react is not my reason to remain silent about know wrongdoings of Trump.

All in all the idea that criticism is “far left”, “liberal”, “support of Democrats” and the like is a dangerous and absurd idea that paves the way for more lies, more statements that a lot of people find to be dehumanizing, racist and the like. Anyone is free to continue to support it - even with wrong statements about those who raise the criticism. I just think one should be very careful not to end up in a situation in which one needs to support Trump no matter what since one’s reputation is already invested in him to a large extent. Why else would there be so much silence from the Evangelicals about his lies, his dehumanizing statements and cruel treatment of innocent children? And no, you will not be supporting Democrats when you raise these issues. You will be supporting what is right and just.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Mountain Man » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:38 am

Diehardpetrafan:) wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:37 pm
Mountain Man, that's exactly what I've been thinking… Jesus has got to be coming soon.
Of course he's coming soon, but "soon" according to God's time scale and not ours. Remember, for the Lord 1000-years is like a day. And all things considered, this is not a particularly terrible time of history. I'm not saying that Jesus can't return during a time of relative peace and prosperity, but if a rotten state of affairs was a perquisite for the second coming then I would think during one of the great World Wars with their unprecedented levels of death and destruction would have been better candidates.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:20 am

Well, yes true. But before you know it we're gonna have another world war.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Dan » Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:33 pm

Trump has been an amazing President, our economy is amazing, our military is strong and unemployment is the lowest in 30 years.

Just remember to exercise caution when traveling to terrorist havens like Denmark:
https://www.osac.gov/Content/Report/4fb ... f4aeb7913b
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by brent » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:41 am

Diehardpetrafan:) wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:20 am
Well, yes true. But before you know it we're gonna have another world war.
Yep, maybe more than one. There will be wars and rumors of wars until the end. The whole world is waring against terrorist Islamic nuts in some form or fashion. We are fighting data and IT system security wars. There is some heavy-duty hacking going on.

I have heard since I was 2 years old that the end is near, Jesus could come today. The end is not near and Jesus COULD come today, but it's not likely. As stated above, Jesus won't return in our lifetimes. If you want to get into the numbers thing, he could be another 3-4k years. While I haven't been to conferences or studied it like I used to, I believe the return of Christ will be about 6-7k years from the ascension. But, that's my idea.

It doesn't matter who is in the Whitehouse. We are not God's chosen nation. Israel IS and they are the centerpiece and timeclock of prophecy. The USA WILL war with Israel, joining all nations. There is nothing special about us. We don't have the corner on freedom, Christianity, etc. There is no mention of us geographically as a superpower or integral piece to global government, so something happens to us by then. I hope we go down fighting for something noble vs. willingly handing over our sovereignty to an Islamic nation, China, Russia, etc.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by brent » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:49 am

curt wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:27 am
Well, first of all it seems he could have done quite a lot that would warrant his impeachment, and I think CT has a very fair point when they state that a person who repeatedly lies and contradicts himself is unfit. Among many other absurdities we are talking about a man who separated completely innocent children from their parents and put them in cages. We are talking about a man who talked in very favourable terms about a man who runs concentration camps and starves people to death. Among so many other absurdities.

The idea that we should limit ourselves to criticize it lightly in order not to support the Democrats is absurd. Anyone who gives up fair self criticism is doomed to fail. The idea one should not acknowledge fair criticism for what it is based on more or less speculative ideas about what Democrats would do is a very dangerous path to follow because it leads to the double standards of not addressing own problems fairly.

Your speculation about what would happen with Pence is a rather naive justification for shutting down criticism. First of all he must be able to defend himself. If he does not have the stomach for that I fail to see how he can be the vice President. And your speculation about what might happen to him and how he might react is not my reason to remain silent about know wrongdoings of Trump.

All in all the idea that criticism is “far left”, “liberal”, “support of Democrats” and the like is a dangerous and absurd idea that paves the way for more lies, more statements that a lot of people find to be dehumanizing, racist and the like. Anyone is free to continue to support it - even with wrong statements about those who raise the criticism. I just think one should be very careful not to end up in a situation in which one needs to support Trump no matter what since one’s reputation is already invested in him to a large extent. Why else would there be so much silence from the Evangelicals about his lies, his dehumanizing statements and cruel treatment of innocent children? And no, you will not be supporting Democrats when you raise these issues. You will be supporting what is right and just.
Heck, name a world leader that doesn't change his mind, contradict him/herself, lie, etc. THEY ARE POLITICIANS. LYING IS THEIR NATURE. ALL of them lie to manipulate people and situations, for the good or bad. I think he is pretty smart in some things and downright stupid in others. But you know? He is working for free. He is more or less a self-made billionaire. He HAS to be good at walking away from relationships that go south and buttsmooch those he needs, whether he likes them or not. This is what is required to play nice in the world. We are talking about leading a nation, not a church. He has to do dirty deeds so the country's interests are protected. You can't be a Jesus follower and be in bed with all of these evil people, even your own party, and make everyone happy. You have to be some kind of mentally ill, unstable, professional con-man/woman.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Dan » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:50 am

Well said Brent. 6-7k years.. Interesting, what's lead you to that?

I find it hard to believe that people still fall for the fake news children in cages. That was debunked as an Obama era photo.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by brent » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:16 am

It's the 7,000-year "doctrine" taught by the first-century church, known and repeated by secular and Christian historians. Basically, the ascension begins the first day (thousand years). God completes his work at the end of the 6,000 years (6th day) and rests on the 7th (Millenial reign). To me, it is the only thing that makes sense.
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Diehardpetrafan:) » Sat Dec 28, 2019 9:07 am

Never heard that before-- I guess it never occurred to me that God might end the world in the way He created it. But then why would He say stuff that We don't know when, & An unknown hour, and even stuff about people who try and figure out a date?
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Re: CT: Trump Should Be Removed from Office

Post by Mountain Man » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:29 am

curt wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:27 am
I think CT has a very fair point when they state that a person who repeatedly lies and contradicts himself is unfit. Among many other absurdities we are talking about a man who separated completely innocent children from their parents and put them in cages. We are talking about a man who talked in very favourable terms about a man who runs concentration camps and starves people to death. Among so many other absurdities.
Bill Clinton and Barack Obama both told their fair share of lies. And it was Obama who put children in cages. Things have improved considerably under Trump with much more humane detention facilities even though the Democrats have repeatedly blocked funding for further improvements (it's almost like they want to keep things at the border as bad as possible). And Trump's comments about Kim Jong Un have to taken in their proper context as a tool of diplomacy. I'm not sure what anybody thinks would be accomplished if Trump openly condemned Un to his face, and considering the great strides the US has made regarding the China/N. Korea situation since Trump's election, I think he is making the right moves.

All this is to say that things aren't as black and white as those opposed to Trump would like to think.

(Sigh... and I said I didn't want to get sucked into this discussion...)
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