The Petra Zone

I think Earth Day is a typical Northern American phenomenon. I don't think we have something like that over here. And if it exists I've never heardof it.

We are giving the local cows some Beano and Gas-X so that their farts won't jack up the atmosphere. Cow farts are more danagerous and abundant than car fumes.

I never connected that part of Revelation 11 to littering and greenhouse gases. I figured it was more about the Destroyer and Babylon (Jer. 51) and corrupting Israel.

My gut level reaction to that is I don't know how concerned God could be with regular Joe's driving SUVs around allegedly damaging His precious Earth when in the very next verse his presence manifestats earthquakes and hailstorms...destructive to earth.

I don't see a command to recycle and plant trees as much as I see those who were persecuted for their faith receiving their reward, and those who fomented war receiving their reward.

But, my grasp of end times prophecy is remedial at best, so I will defer to the other theologians here who typically clean up after me.

Nevertheless, I hope Creation Care Sunday advances the kingdom. Trees are pretty.

And p-freak, just out of curiosity, what are some other "typical Northern American" phenomena? I'm fascinated by that, and I think I'd like another perspective besides my own.

Matthew RJ wrote:The time has come for judging ... and for destroying those who destroy the earth

I can read, wow. You raised your voice, thus reinforcing your argument.

You and I simply differ on interpretation.

A more obvious Biblical mandate for creation care would be Leviticus 25 and the consequences of not following that mandate in 26, but its taboo to make a scriptural point about anything in the OT.

Matthew RJ wrote:Why is this topic so offensive to you?

Don't mistake my disagreement for offense. Like I said, it was a gut level reaction. You put your opinion out there and I had a different one. I'm not going to just swallow anyone's interpretation at face value without doing my own reading and study, and I wouldn't expect you to do that either.

Matthew RJ wrote:Am I alone in seeing the Biblical mandate to care for creation?

Maybe you see yourself as alone, because those who agree with you 100% haven't spoken up yet. But just because people aren't 100% in agreement with your ideas and opinions doesn't make you alone in seeing a Biblical mandate to care for creation.

Well, I think we are going to have a class on growing your own food, because at the rate the secular environmental movement is currently going, there will be a food shortage pretty soon, or food prices will just be way to high. We're also going to encourage members to, in this economy, help create jobs by getting rid of any trees on their property that might be a problem, or are just blocking their view. A little clearcutting is nice, especially this time of year. They can employ a tree service company to fell the offending trees, and then employ a craftsman that is skilled in milling those trees and turning them into beautiful pieces of furniture for their home. While they are at it, they can use the cleared space to build a couple additions to their home, or maybe a gymnasium or indoor pool.
We'll probably also have a slide show of all the temperature monitoring stations in North America that are inaccurate because they are located adjacent to strong heat sources.
And, we're definitely ordering several cases of incandescent light bulbs to give out to remind families of the environmental dangers of the new mercury filled flourescent bulbs.

Seriously, we'll continue to do what we've always done. That is, set the example for others by recycling and adhering to local trash laws, keeping the church grounds in top shape, planting new trees and landscaping, and also sending out volunteer teams to help those who are no longer able to care for their own property, perhaps even sponsoring one of those roadside clean up crews. I'd like to see a clearly defined list of what we are to do beyond that. I think it would be getting into issues where there is much debate about whether it is a help, a hindrance, or if there is even a problem. God is in control so, "act now or we'll pass the point of no return" doesn't apply.

I almost forgot, we'll be encouraging members to send money to help with the lawsuit against Al Gore's movie. The lawsuit in Britain was successful. A U.S. one will be as well, given enough money to support it.

GMan

I think that we all know Al Gore is an idiot. Anyone that claims (with a straight face mind you) that HE created the internet, and that Gone With The Wind is based on his life, is truely insane and hearing some voices of the demonic kind. What a total jack.

Ok. So, maybe some of these rocket scientists can tell me this. HOW DOES THE WATER LEAVE THE EARTH? So we have a fe degrees of an increase in temp. It happens. It is cyclical. The water stays on the earth. It always has. It is just distributed differently.

Remember the 70s? Time Magazine did a big spread on how we would all be burnt up by the 90s. Massive hellish heat wave is coming. Didn't happen. Science is great isn't it? We will all laugh at the crude science of today, like we do the science of the 1800s.

Matthew RJ wrote:www.earthday.net has a list of world wide events, but you're right ... it may be a North American thing. It began in the 70s out of the US (some good things come out of the USA - Earth Day, Petra).

Here in Canada anyway the politicans talk green, companies go green, and the church only talks about evolution -vs- creation. It's sad that we are so focused on the origin of species but not the extinction of species. I see an great opportunity for evangelism. Aside from being obedient to the call of God to care for creation (see Rev. 11:18 !), we have a chance to speak to the world about a topic we all should care about. It's called building bridges, relationships and amounts to evangelism.

Here's an article I helped write for my denomination:
http://www.fmc-canada.org/who/papers/Th ... onment.pdf

Your Bible must be different from mine because my Bible is talking about Babylon and Israel.

gman wrote:Well, I think we are going to have a class on growing your own food, because at the rate the secular environmental movement is currently going, there will be a food shortage pretty soon, or food prices will just be way to high. We're also going to encourage members to, in this economy, help create jobs by getting rid of any trees on their property that might be a problem, or are just blocking their view. A little clearcutting is nice, especially this time of year. They can employ a tree service company to fell the offending trees, and then employ a craftsman that is skilled in milling those trees and turning them into beautiful pieces of furniture for their home. While they are at it, they can use the cleared space to build a couple additions to their home, or maybe a gymnasium or indoor pool.
We'll probably also have a slide show of all the temperature monitoring stations in North America that are inaccurate because they are located adjacent to strong heat sources.
And, we're definitely ordering several cases of incandescent light bulbs to give out to remind families of the environmental dangers of the new mercury filled flourescent bulbs.

Seriously, we'll continue to do what we've always done. That is, set the example for others by recycling and adhering to local trash laws, keeping the church grounds in top shape, planting new trees and landscaping, and also sending out volunteer teams to help those who are no longer able to care for their own property, perhaps even sponsoring one of those roadside clean up crews. I'd like to see a clearly defined list of what we are to do beyond that. I think it would be getting into issues where there is much debate about whether it is a help, a hindrance, or if there is even a problem. God is in control so, "act now or we'll pass the point of no return" doesn't apply.

I almost forgot, we'll be encouraging members to send money to help with the lawsuit against Al Gore's movie. The lawsuit in Britain was successful. A U.S. one will be as well, given enough money to support it.

GMan

Didn't I see somewhere that the Weather Channel is getting involved in a lawsuit discrediting Al Gore's nonsense? Also I know that the U.S. Government, The UN, and Great Britian have discuss taking legal action against our friend Al.
All I know is I live in Texas and we actually have had 2 mild summers in a roll, our lakes are full, and we have 6 in. of snow on the ground as I write this note; The last time we had a snow fall like this was in the 1890's.

Matthew RJ wrote:HAHAA cow farts. Yes, lots of laughs there.

The time has come for judging ... and for destroying those who destroy the earth

Why must you reduce creation care to greenhouse gases?

Why is this topic so offensive to you?

Am I alone in seeing the Biblical mandate to care for creation?

I heard it said that it would be odd for Rembrandt art critics to praise the artist then trample the paintings. But isn't that what Christians do all the time?

Man you don't have to yell, we saw your incorrect or might I say misintrepation of Scripture in your previous post.

Matthew RJ wrote:Some people prefer to call it "Creation Care Sunday" - but if you're trying to be culturally relevant (without surrendering the Gospel) using the term "Creation" will conjure up the evolution creation debate.

I want to have a service where we invite the community to come and see that we share a common interest - "creation care" - We'll begin with the Biblical COMMAND to care for the earth, with a prayer of repentence because humanity has disobeyed this command. We'll thank God for his good creation and end with a call for action. Our church has also ordered 100 trees to give out so everyone can plant a tree.

What is your church doing to reach the lost and care for the earth like God commands?

Oh we are going to plant a tree and party like its 1999!!!!!! Boy those were the best of times.

brent wrote:I think that we all know Al Gore is an idiot. Anyone that claims (with a straight face mind you) that HE created the internet, and that Gone With The Wind is based on his life, is truely insane and hearing some voices of the demonic kind. What a total jack.

Ok. So, maybe some of these rocket scientists can tell me this. HOW DOES THE WATER LEAVE THE EARTH? So we have a fe degrees of an increase in temp. It happens. It is cyclical. The water stays on the earth. It always has. It is just distributed differently.

Remember the 70s? Time Magazine did a big spread on how we would all be burnt up by the 90s. Massive hellish heat wave is coming. Didn't happen. Science is great isn't it? We will all laugh at the crude science of today, like we do the science of the 1800s.

Al Gore might have something to do with the Time Mag. theme; He was a occasional writer for them in the late 60's to mid 70's

I'm a little sketchy on the details. I believe the founder of the weather channel is no longer with them, and has a beef with them for promoting what he believes is junk science. The guy who brought the lawsuit in England was Lord Monkton. He was in New York over the weekend for a conference of heavy hitters in science who believe that the modern environmental movement is not based on credible science; that it is more of a religious movement with Al Gore and others at the center, whose primary goal is the growth of gov't, without actual concern for the environment.
What the lawsuit did was to make it law that in order for Gore's movie to be shown in public education, the opposite side must also be presented. They don't want to shut Gore down, but rather they want to promote open-minded discussion that looks at all sides. They want to stop the move toward shutting down all dissenting opinion.
Monkton believes that $2 million would be necessary for a lawsuit because U.S. law is much more complex.

GMan

gman wrote:I'm a little sketchy on the details. I believe the founder of the weather channel is no longer with them, and has a beef with them for promoting what he believes is junk science. The guy who brought the lawsuit in England was Lord Monkton. He was in New York over the weekend for a conference of heavy hitters in science who believe that the modern environmental movement is not based on credible science; that it is more of a religious movement with Al Gore and others at the center, whose primary goal is the growth of gov't, without actual concern for the environment.
What the lawsuit did was to make it law that in order for Gore's movie to be shown in public education, the opposite side must also be presented. They don't want to shut Gore down, but rather they want to promote open-minded discussion that looks at all sides. They want to stop the move toward shutting down all dissenting opinion.
Monkton believes that $2 million would be necessary for a lawsuit because U.S. law is much more complex.

GMan

The official TWC comment is we are looking at our options towards Al Gore. According to Foxnews the U.S. Government, UN, and British Parliment have all taken some steps in bringing legal action in the past 2-3 yrs against Al Gore, but have never gone the final step in getting it in court.

I read the article you posted. It was an interesting read. I felt compelled to pull out a couple quotes for the sake of discussion.

If environmental problems are as serious as the experts make out, Christians clearly have a need to focus their response as a matter of both survival and significant apologetics.

Do the right thing. We are to fulfill our calling to be caretakers of the earth, regardless of whether global warming is real, or there are holes in the ozone layer, or three nonhuman species become extinct each day. Our vocation is not contingent on results or the state of the planet

Perhaps those two quotes represent where many of us differ. We could go for days just on the first one. Who are the experts? Are we listening to those who seek truth in regards to the environment, or those who push propaganda? What is the real state of the planet and should that affect our thinking and actions? Anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the statement about our survival has no biblical basis. While we shouldn't shirk our responsibility toward Creation, we should understand that God created it, and he alone will determine when it will be ended. Nothing we could ever do, or not do, could cause him to remove his hand from it. We can be wise and practical in our actions, without fear of dire consequences.
The second quote seems to lead down the road of do anything, as long as the intent is good, or it feels like the right thing to do. If you enact one hundred policies on the environment and ninety nine of them turn out to be a bust, it's okay because the intent was good, and one of them worked out. Again, because I don't believe the state of the environment can ever be dire, I believe that we have the freedom to use the faculties God gave us to be wise and make smart decisions. We don't have to do anything and everything; piling on layers and layers of policies and ideas that don't work. Our vocation not being contingent on results is what allows us to mandate the use of a new light bulb, in the name of energy conservation, that really doesn't solve anything energy wise, and is hazardous to the environment and to our own health.
I realize that there are evangelistic opportunities with this issue, but how far do you go? How much do you spend on the environment, in the name of evangelism, versus actually preaching the word and evangelizing. This ties into a vigorous discussion that was had on this board some time back about how much money the church spends in the name of evangelism and outreach, and would the money be better spent around the world on missionaries and organizations who are getting the gospel out, feeding the poor, healing the sick, etc.
Before you respond back by saying, "what's wrong with caring for environment?", allow me to say nicely that it doesn't help the discussion. Let's be clear that we all care and want to reach an understanding of what caring looks like. You may believe that you have a greater thelogical understanding on this issue, and you certainly have that the right to hold that belief. As your paper says, if you believe it is right for you to do, then you should do it. Because one does not go as far as you in their view on this issue, that doesn't mean they don't care. They may not go as far as you do in their actions, but I think even the scholars mentioned in your paper would say that they are at least doing something.
Just some rambling thoughts.

GMan

See, it is political. The Creation Care website makes it so. Many of the issues they raise are tied directly to political hot issues. As you have pointed out, there aren't very many Christian experts speaking out on this subject. Creation Care urges us to listen to the experts. We would have to listen to secular so called experts in order to get a wide swath of opinion. Many of them are politically motivated. Some promote a do anything approach in the name of caring, because that's the right thing to do, even if the proposed actions don't work. Your paper suggests the same idea. Results don't matter, it's the doing something that is right.
I think a defined list is good because there is a difference between those things which just make sense and those things that have no biblical basis one way or the other and are purely political. Deforestation comes to mind because God gave us the ability to use trees for our benefit in a variety if ways, they are a renewable resource, and we plant more than we cut down.
I'm willing to bet that many of Christian leaders involved with this issue fall right in line politically with Mr. Gore and the modern environmental movement with respect to caring for creation. This issue is political, and I think it is good to separate the politcal stuff from that which doesn't need to political. I think others have correctly pointed out that Creation care mixes the two.

GMan