Ray Boltz GAY?

[brent]

Do you know the difference between genetic and genetic predisposition Brent?

Studies have shown that a concert of biological and environmental factors may affect sexual orientation in men (lesbians are often a different story). For instance estrogen levels in utero appear to have a link to later sexual orientation. People really do not just choose to be gay. This is not only a simplistic view of the medical issues but of the issue of a will bound in sin.

You also disregard the fact that human kind is given over to this by God. Again it is not a choice, but is the just punishment for looking at a mirror to find God. Suddenly we find ourselves utterly inflamed with passion for the same. Make no mistake that is not a choice but a punishment.

First of all, studies can be made to say anything. Studies used to show that slapping a baby at birth was beneficial. Science is crude at best. Science gives us tainted truths, because it's agenda is evolution and no God. Of course they are going to say things that build a case for their agenda.

However I do not discount what you said in your first paragraph. I did not address it. In fact, Dobson spoke about that as well. The topic here however is about Boltz, a Christian, being gay.

Someone said he cannot help it. I say that he could have if he really knows Christ, because God will always presents an out (choice to obey or disobey), IF scripture is correct. And I think we agree that it is. So therefore, as you said, it comes down to serving one or the other. One must die and we all know who can't.

I added the free will choice to the equation, because I know first hand of people that went into it just like that. They were not able to get girls because they were not manly men. They got dates. They could have been married. But it was easier for them to have sexualrelations whenever they wanted. That was it.

I have a family member that was babied by his mother, shunned by his father (evangelist), and became a homosexual drug addict. There were a bunch of kids in that family. They were all raised differently. They were all straight but one. I get that. He had a choice to act on that. He knew sex was for a man and wife. He knew it was a sin. He persisted out of rebellion and his life is hell to this day.

Former homosexuals are on record stating that they got into it as a progression of perversion. Soft bunnies>hardcore>swinging>boom! So it was a decision on the front side to look and lust that led to it. They may not have had a choice once it started, like drugs, etc. They hated it, wished they could stop, but were addicted, etc. Finally, God gave them an out.

Homosexuality is not a judgement in and of itself. It is act of sin. It is something that makes God sick to his stomach, just like getting it on with animals. That is not a judgement or curse either. It is a natural progression of the ultimate sick carnality. People are not born with the desire to brownchicken browncow with animals anymore than they are to be homosexuals. They have influences and a decision to make.

[separateunion]

Science gives us tainted truths, because it's agenda is evolution and no God.

Really? Science is in and of itself in antithesis to God? I think that is a bit overstated.

However I do not discount what you said in your first paragraph.

Which is the point I've been trying to make throughout this thread.

The topic here however is about Boltz, a Christian, being gay.

Someone said he cannot help it.

That is not what I said. Exe said all gay people choose to be that way and I disagreed. I'm not sure how that got turned into saying that Ray Boltz doesn't have a choice.

[brent]

Every generation looks at science and it's advancements with high esteem. They marval at the latest discoverings.

Consider the cell. At the time of Darwin, they thought that they had the cell all figured out. They marvaled at the science of their day. But all scientists are chasers. They are like musicians. They are never happy. They are like atheletes. They push and push. So while WE think that science has all of the answers, it doesn't. We don't know the correct questions to ask sometimes. It took a major advancement many, many, many years later in technology for science to advance and realize that Darwin and the scientists of his day were wrong. The cell is not a blob of gell. It is a very complex organism. Until they could see it, they could not comprehend it and begin to analyze it. Now we are just beginning to.

So you see. Science is crude, because we think we have things figured out, until someone down the line is able to see more detail and do more research.

[separateunion]

No one said science had all the answers, but to disregard scientific discoveries completely is foolish.

[brent]

No one said science had all the answers, but to disregard scientific discoveries completely is foolish.

I didn't say that. You are using extremism. Again, science is a tool for some to change society. Some things thought to be scientifically sound today, may not be tomorrow. So I would be careful building a belief system using science. There are Christians and non Christians wresting science to prove/disprove matters of the faith. This is dangerous. If you take the bible for what it is worth, that should be all that you need. Not the bible and a science book.

[charl]

But...do you know the difference between genetic and genetic predisposition Brent?

Science is simply the study of the physical. People have agendas. Science does not.

It is clear that people don't choose this life-there are many gays who wish they were straight just because life would be so much easier. Male sexuality tends to be definite while female sexuality is more fluid, so there are many factors involved.

All deviancy is a result of the fall, though same sex attraction can be said to be a unique symptom. However it is clearly stated to be a symptomatic sin, not a causal one. The reason people suffer same sex attraction is idolatry. Desire to subvert the order of creation which we are given over to. We as a species not they as gays. This is clearly the trajectory of Romans 1. Desire to worship self=passion for that which is like self=degradation of the creation that is worshipped incorrectly. Paul of course hits us all there.

There is not a promise to escape suffering in this life. Christ himself did not. I think that attitude is at the bottom of the problems in the way the church deals with same sex attraction. Just stop feeling that way and be good. It is an intense struggle that we trivialize by saying oh God will make it go away if you're faithful. What happens when he doesn't make it go away, and doesn't and doesn't and DOESN'T? Well you're not faithful enough or something. Then we wonder by the battered finally give up.

The judgmentalism that exists amongst Christians for even attraction to the same sex cuts many off from needed help. If we do consider same sex attraction to be a behavioural problem, then it is generally one rooted in confusion over relational needs. Close platonic relationships with persons of the same sex is often what is lacking and needed and are what sexual relationships may be confused for. People need to support those dealing with same sex attraction this way, by having loving relationships with them, knowing their struggles. However because of the ostracization they experience, many keep it a secret-one that can not be dealt with alone, one that can not just go away if you pray enough. And it eventually explodes. We do not help those who may be feeling this way by our pompousness. God uses the means of the brethren to hold the weakest up. If they are not able to stand we should view it also as our failure because we did not hold them.

[brent]

Sure I know the difference. Predispositions exist in all humans. Those are not signs from God that he wants you to fulfill them or accepts you because you acted upon them.

There are two sexes, male and female. Yes there are oddities, people born with two organs, etc. But generally, there are two sexes, not four. That is genetically proven. There are no gay genes.

I know that I inherited some predispositions of my father. I was aware of these things as early as kindergarten. I did not have to act on them. I had a choice to get help or not. I am not infering that all predispositions are the same or carry the same weight in torment. All I am saying is that God gives the believer an out. If you say no to God long enough, he will turn you over to your passions. I did not ever want to be there. That would not be a sign of love and obedience on my part. It would be basically like giving God the finger and I don't think I can do that and live without fear of judgement.

[charl]

No. A genetic predisposition is a predilection that in the advent of other factors will manifest. Dementias and autoimmunity are thought to be things that there may be a genetic predisposition for. However it needs an environmental (or other) trigger to manifest. This means there is no "autoimmunity gene" yet your chances of developing an autoimmune disease are greater if they are in your family. Why? Genetic predisposition. Still one clearly does not choose to not develop an autoimmune disease or no one would have them. That is utterly too simplistic a view for the issues involved.

Our genes, along with everything else are also affected by the fall. It is completely possible that there may be a physical component to deviant sexuality. To say this is impossible is to deny that the fall's effects extend to our bodies. Death says otherwise.

And what of the person who denies such desires for years and years and God never takes them away? He does not just "give them an out"? Does that person just need a little more faith? He's giving God the finger by crying every night against what he is ashamed by and will not go away? By his own testimony Ray Boltz was for years this very type of person. The fact that he is where he is now is in part due to the fact that he was not supported in his struggle because he was afraid to tell anyone. I have heard of men who have committed suicide after being tortured with their same sex desires and not being able to cope with them any longer. It seems these are the only options we're leaving those who suffer with this. Accept that you are gay or kill yourself. Either way we'll see you in hell.

Regarding same sex attraction as a behavioural problem, cognitive therapy and relationships of the types mentioned would then be in order. Not simply choosing to quit it. Sin is never an issue of just choosing or none of us would do it.

We do not affirm sin. But we must remove the stigma of the temptation so that we might help our brothers with such struggles. THAT is how God delivers them, through the means of our love.

[brent]

Sin is never an issue of just choosing or none of us would do it.

We are talking about the same thing I believe. ALL humans are born with a sin nature. We ALL inherit traits of our parents. I believe that it is a combination of physical and spiritual. I think that the conception and birth of Christ sheds some light on this subject.

I do not believe what you say, that we have no choice but to sin. That is wrong IMO. I know for a fact that I have chosen to sin. By not choosing to do what I should I sin. But choosing to do wrong I sin. Sin is even defined as a sliding scale more or less in scripture. What might be sin for a mature Christian is not sin for a baby without knowledge. So what does that say? That when we grow in the Lord and become aware of sin, what it does to us, what it does to God, we eventually stop it, repent and move on to focus on the next part of our life that is purified by God.

It is our childish pride and arogance that blinds us, and makes us think that we will get away with it somehow. THAT'S why we do it.

[charl]

So why do I sin? I don't want to get away with it. I don't want to displease God. Yet I do so every day, as did Paul. Paul and I are not just worse than everyone else, our experience is the normative one. Our flesh lives and we exhibit it's effects our whole lives, even as our nature is being changed. Sin in us is still powerful enough to have it's own way.

Someone suffering from same sex attraction has about as much choice in the matter of that attraction as someone suffering from mental illness or dementia. They can't just will themselves to stop. They have been affected by the fall in a unique way-yet being attracted to the same sex is not more sinful than being schizophrenic or even having cancer (another set of diseases for which there is thought to be a genetic predisposition).

Do we live in a primitive culture of superstition that directly correlates every bad thing that happens to us with some specific bad thing we do?

[brent]

So why do I sin? I don't want to get away with it. I don't want to displease God. Yet I do so every day, as did Paul. Paul and I are not just worse than everyone else, our experience is the normative one. Our flesh lives and we exhibit it's effects our whole lives, even as our nature is being changed. Sin in us is still powerful enough to have it's own way.

Someone suffering from same chess attraction has about as much choice in the matter of that attraction as someone suffering from mental illness or dementia. They can't just will themselves to stop. They have been affected by the fall in a unique way-yet being attracted to the same chess is not more sinful than being schizophrenic or even having cancer (another set of diseases for which there is thought to be a genetic predisposition).

Do we live in a primitive culture of superstition that directly correlates every bad thing that happens to us with some specific bad thing we do?

I don't know what YOU sin. I know why I sin.

Yes, everyone sins. But it is a choice. That is why we were given commands to sin not, told to resist the devil and he would flee, and that temptations build us. Temptations are not sins in an of themselves. It is what we do with the temptation. We are told to yield not to temptations.

So my question to you is why would the bible have so many thou shalt nots and other commands of obedience if we were incapable of obedience? It sounds like we are no better than the animals, and we are programmed to be disappintments to our creator. Kind of senseless wouldn't you say?

[separateunion]

No one said science had all the answers, but to disregard scientific discoveries completely is foolish.

I didn't say that. You are using extremism. Again, science is a tool for some to change society. Some things thought to be scientifically sound today, may not be tomorrow. So I would be careful building a belief system using science. There are Christians and non Christians wresting science to prove/disprove matters of the faith. This is dangerous. If you take the bible for what it is worth, that should be all that you need. Not the bible and a science book.

We're not talking about a matter of faith. This isn't Evolution vs. Creation. This is proven scientific fact we're talking about, and it is not going to make or break anyone's faith.

[brent]

Have you heard the story this week about the couple in Maryland? The father was arrested at a school board meeting where he was asking for his child to opt out of a grade school class on homosexuality. There was no disorderly conduct. Those were not the charges at all.

The case went up to the state supreme court. The courts say that homosexuality is NOT a personal moral issue. It is a civil rights issue. Because it is a civil rights issue, the schools have the right to teach on it, whatever way they see fit.

SU, you are wrong about faith and science. I worked for a church where the pastor went from accepting the literal days of creation as written, to evolution, gays on staff (which led to me leaving) and other things. He would interview doctors from KU, and they would discuss evolution as a fact, and dismiss scripture and long held traditional interpretations to suit what THEY think science says.

There is very little proven scientific data about homosexuality actually. If there were more, they would have an easier time with law changes, etc. They keep looking for a gene. They will never find it. They can't unlock the mysteries of the soul. There are so many confliting medical books, journals and magazine articles on the subject.

[charl]

Brent Brent. You write this stuff just to tweak me don't you?

Why have a law we can't obey? What purpose then does the law serve? Well...If there had been a law given which could have given life, righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Sound at all familiar?

Whether sexual orientation should be protected under the law or not is completely tangential and irrelevant.

The Lion of Princeton BB Warfield was a theistic evolutionist. That's all I'm going to say about that logical fallacy.

lastly no one is looking for a "gene", the human genome has been mapped. Please go back and read my post about genetic predisposition. Again to deny this can be a factor is to deny our bodies are affected by the fall. And such trivialization is not going to help those dealing with it. It is going to make it harder for them because it totally falls short of reality. If you say that a physical component makes it necessary to accept homosexual behaviour, then you make the same error as those insisting it should be protected. It does not imply this.

[brent]

Brent Brent. You write this stuff just to tweak me don't you?

Actually, there are a couple of us here that DO sit around and think up stuff from time to time.