Crap. What next?

[separateunion]

I know people who are making $100k right now, doing nothing, sitting at home, because GM quit making their cars on their line three years ago.

That's another issue altogether. If the unions hadn't bullied the auto companies into paying people $25/hr to do menial tasks that anyone with a 5th grade education could do, maybe they wouldn feel entitled. And aren't some of those people drawing money from the company they formerly worked for rather than the government?

Meanwhile the majority of the NBA, NFL and a college sports are made up of intelligent, college educated, goal achieving people who are not white.

Quite wrong, actually. Not even half of professional sports players graduated from college. Many graduated with a bogus degree in some ridiculous field like sports science. Sure, some professionals sports players are intelligent and well educated, but I've seen and heard enough interviews with players in the NFL and NBA that couldn't speak English correctly if they tried, and English is their primary language. They are plenty of professional sports players who are dumb as rocks and the only reason they made it through any college at all is because their ability to play a sport meant their college professors felt they couldn't fail these players because they were too important to the college's reputation as sports stars.

There are jobs here, just not jobs that people will take. They won't take them because of their pride. They would rather get a hand out and stay home.

Tell that to my dad. He hasn't been able to find work for years and he has a PhD.

We need the government to have these dropouts sign a form stating that they acknowledge they will never receive government support funded by tax dollars, if they drop out. Because dropouts most often suck off the government in the future. It is hard enough for me to feed my family. I should not have to feed some lazy idiot and his because he thought school was for fools.

The public school system is a failure and has been for a long time. Besides, it's not like a high school diploma gets you anywhere these days. Having a bachelors degree doesn't even guarantee you a job anymore. Should we also have people sign forms because they choose not to go to college? Or through a Masters program?

In a perfect world, those who put forth the effort would always be rewarded and those who didn't wouldn't be, but it's not a perfect world. Despite this, I don't remember Jesus only ministering to those who deserved it.

[separateunion]

Why isn't this in the politics board, it's clear this was never about prayer, but rather just a thread to bash the lazy poor.

Well maybe it is time they get up off their lazy bums and find work. The jobs are out there but they don't want to do them; They would rather have the government and church handouts to pay their way.

I'm going to assume you aren't dumb, you just misunderstood RJ's sarcasm. The point he and I have been trying to make is that being poor does not equal being lazy.

[gman]

Why isn't this in the politics board, it's clear this was never about prayer, but rather just a thread to bash the lazy poor.

Well maybe it is time they get up off their lazy bums and find work. The jobs are out there but they don't want to do them; They would rather have the government and church handouts to pay their way.

I'm going to assume you aren't dumb, you just misunderstood RJ's sarcasm. The point he and I have been trying to make is that being poor does not equal being lazy.

Exactly right. Being poor does not equal being lazy. Being lazy equals being lazy, and if you're lazy, no handout for you. Gov't doesn't differentiate between the two. They give a handout to everyone.
They mandate that people who suck at their job get paid a higher minimum wage so that people who do well at their job will get paid more. Meanwhile, those people get screwed to a degree because the cost of living goes up as a result, thereby cutting into some of their raise, and I really get screwed because the cost of living goes up and I don't get a raise.
The American dream is that you can work hard to be whatever you want and achieve whatever you want. It doesn't guarantee an equal outcome for everyone. The gov't wants to push towards an equal outcome for all. The socialist solar panel company is a sign of whats to come: The United States of France.

[executioner]

Why isn't this in the politics board, it's clear this was never about prayer, but rather just a thread to bash the lazy poor.

Well maybe it is time they get up off their lazy bums and find work. The jobs are out there but they don't want to do them; They would rather have the government and church handouts to pay their way.

I'm going to assume you aren't dumb, you just misunderstood RJ's sarcasm. The point he and I have been trying to make is that being poor does not equal being lazy.

No I'm not dumb, and I am very smart because I have first hand experience in this area. My sister and aunt both work for their local county government health and human services, and what you and RJ are saying is very untrue. I will explain as follows:

1. 9 out of 10 people on some form of welfare or medicad are physically and mentally able to find a job. Jobs are out there but most people have been on welfare for so long they have found the easy or lazy way out of life. I am in managment and I have a hard time filling $12-$15 per hr. positions because people don't want to work.
2. Welfare and health services was formed to give people that were down and out on their luck temporary help to get back on their feet, but in reality almost 75% of people on welfare in the U.S. have been on welfare more then 5 years and 20% have been on welfare for more than 10 years. These people never have the intention of finding a job, and never have the intention of getting off on welfare.
In the last 2 years I and my wife went from making 45K a year to making 35K because the media company I worked for laid me and 1,500 people off, but I found a job making less money and I am much happier doing it. We also have started a home cleaning business that is coming along better then we expected, but its hard to find people that are willing to work even though they only work about 4-5 hours per day Mon-Fri and make 600-650 per week. This is a total shame because its not a hard job at all.
3. Right now there is a scam going on with teenage girls. They are choosing to get pregnant so they can get assistance from health services, my sister says it is getting worse and worse every year. She says an average 18-25 yr old single women that has 2 or more kids gets about $1600 per month in welfare and this amount goes up per kid; this amount does not include food stamps which is another $600 per month for 2 kids. Another item you all don't realize is that we working folks get $1,000 tax break per kid, but someone on welfare gets $1,300 tax break per kid. It's obvious it pays to be poor and on welfare.
4. Each time a child is born in the U.S. and that mother chooses to be on medicad those hospitals charge Health services an average of $6500 per delivery. Most Hospitals love taking in medicad pregnancies because that money is guarnteed and is paid out within 60 days; They would rather deal with health services anyday over your health insurance group.

I totally disagree with you all about the poor not being lazy, I'm sorry but most of them are and choose to be that way because they want people to feel sorry for them or they would rather have a welfare handout or a church assistance.

[separateunion]

1. 9 out of 10 people on some form of welfare or medicad are physically and mentally able to find a job. Jobs are out there but most people have been on welfare for so long they have found the easy or lazy way out of life. I am in managment and I have a hard time filling $12-$15 per hr. positions because people don't want to work.

Ability to work does not mean one has a job available. Just because you are on welfare and capable of working does not mean you are abusing the system. I know this first hand because my family had to live off of different forms of welfare for about two years. It was NOT because my dad was incapable of working, it was because the only job he could get, substitute teaching, did not bring in nearly enough to pay for our basic necessities.

2. Welfare and health services was formed to give people that were down and out on their luck temporary help to get back on their feet, but in reality almost 75% of people on welfare in the U.S. have been on welfare more then 5 years and 20% have been on welfare for more than 10 years. These people never have the intention of finding a job, and never have the intention of getting off on welfare.

Numbers are nice, but you have nothing to back them up. I could make up or manipulate numbers to have them say what I want as well. Have you interviewed each and every person on welfare to know that they don't have any intention of getting a job? Also, people abuse the system and no one in this thread denied that.

In the last 2 years I and my wife went from making 45K a year to making 35K because the media company I worked for laid me and 1,500 people off, but I found a job making less money and I am much happier doing it. We also have started a home cleaning business that is coming along better then we expected, but its hard to find people that are willing to work even though they only work about 4-5 hours per day Mon-Fri and make 600-650 per week. This is a total shame because its not a hard job at all.

Congrats, but I've lived in areas where it was nearly impossible to find a minimum wage job. Just because a good paying job was available for you does not mean it is for everyone.

3. Right now there is a scam going on with teenage girls. They are choosing to get pregnant so they can get assistance from health services, my sister says it is getting worse and worse every year. She says an average 18-25 yr old single women that has 2 or more kids gets about $1600 per month in welfare and this amount goes up per kid; this amount does not include food stamps which is another $600 per month for 2 kids. Another item you all don't realize is that we working folks get $1,000 tax break per kid, but someone on welfare gets $1,300 tax break per kid. It's obvious it pays to be poor and on welfare.

Yep, people abuse the system. I never denied that, but it doesn't prove in any way that the majority of poor people are lazy. Just as many people abuse the system at the top as do at the bottom. The rich abuse the system plenty, but there is rarely any outrage from the Christian community about that.

4. Each time a child is born in the U.S. and that mother chooses to be on medicad those hospitals charge Health services an average of $6500 per delivery. Most Hospitals love taking in medicad pregnancies because that money is guarnteed and is paid out within 60 days; They would rather deal with health services anyday over your health insurance group.

Again, has nothing to do with poor people being lazy.

I totally disagree with you all about the poor not being lazy, I'm sorry but most of them are and choose to be that way because they want people to feel sorry for them or they would rather have a welfare handout or a church assistance.

You have absolutely nothing with which to back up this statement. This is one of the things that is majorly wrong with the Church today: the idea that poor people are poor because they want to be, so we shouldn't extend them any help.

[separateunion]

Exactly right. Being poor does not equal being lazy. Being lazy equals being lazy, and if you're lazy, no handout for you. Gov't doesn't differentiate between the two. They give a handout to everyone.

Well, how does one differentiate, then? How do you know who is hard working enough to deserve a handout and who isn't? Should the church only help those who are hard working? What does Scripture say about this?

Again, I'm not necessarily arguing in favor of Socialism, but too many people treat this like a black and white issue when it is so much more complex than that.

They mandate that people who suck at their job get paid a higher minimum wage so that people who do well at their job will get paid more. Meanwhile, those people get screwed to a degree because the cost of living goes up as a result, thereby cutting into some of their raise, and I really get screwed because the cost of living goes up and I don't get a raise.

Minimum wage messes with the free market system just like the bailouts. Did you know that President Obama is requiring a maximum wage be set if the auto companies accept bailouts? I'd like to see more of that.

The American dream is that you can work hard to be whatever you want and achieve whatever you want. It doesn't guarantee an equal outcome for everyone. The gov't wants to push towards an equal outcome for all. The socialist solar panel company is a sign of whats to come: The United States of France.

I don't know that the government wants to going fully Socialist. Maybe some within the government do, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who actually care about the well being of others and don't want them to suffer.

Capitalism, the polar opposite of Socialism, isn't that much better when it encourages the individual to hoard money and step on everyone they need to in order to get to the top. I'm not sure how that is a far and away better system.

[executioner]

Yeah you've missed the point my friend.

1. I never said all poor people are lazy just most, and to be frank I think generally most of us including the rich are lazy in one way or another.

2. Your family is most likely one of the ones that fell into that very small minority of families that had no choice whatsoever to go that route, and also your family used the system the way it was intended to be used and that is on a limited short term basis. BTW when the Welfare System was first brought to light every person using the system was renewed or denied on a monthly basis and one could not be on welfare for more the 12 consecitive months.

3. I wish I could find the exact #'s but that would be frankly impossible. It's obvious I have not interviewed every person on welfare(thats where you think your humor is funny but is lacking taste).

4. I always tell people that can't find work "you are not trying hard enough" Even today there are good to decent paying jobs out there, you just have to look harder then usual. This might mean relocated to the next town, county, or even state but hey their out there.

5. I am all for one the church stepping in to help people out that are down and out, but not to help the ones that just show up at the door once a month to get their monthly hand out. our church wants these people to proove to the church they are looking for work and they are at least trying to get off of the system and being a productive part of our society. We have a job program at our church that helps out the needy to find work, but I would say half or so of those jobs are not filled because either the needy don't want to work or they are afraid of losing their welfare and food stamps if they do work.
Like I said eariler I have 2 positions open right now in my cleaning business that pays about $600-$650 per week(before tax) and working only 25 hrs a week, but they go unfilled because I can't find dependable people to keep them filled. Now I know why small business go the illegal route to get the job done and hey they want to work and work their bums off in the process.

[gman]

Exactly right. Being poor does not equal being lazy. Being lazy equals being lazy, and if you're lazy, no handout for you. Gov't doesn't differentiate between the two. They give a handout to everyone.

Well, how does one differentiate, then? How do you know who is hard working enough to deserve a handout and who isn't? Should the church only help those who are hard working? What does Scripture say about this?

I'm certainly not in a position to differentiate. That's why you put enough rules and restrictions into these programs to weed out the sponges and not create a free for all, or breed some of the trends we're seeing. Bill Clinton tried introducing some reforms. I'm hearing now that Obama wants to repeal those reforms.

Capitalism, the polar opposite of Socialism, isn't that much better when it encourages the individual to hoard money and step on everyone they need to in order to get to the top. I'm not sure how that is a far and away better system.

Socialism, even if the intent is pure, doesn't work. At least in the context I mentioned earlier. Capitalism is best when society as a whole remains pegged to God and morality.

As for people being lazy or not, this is how I see it. I can't throw up numbers, so it's just my opinion. I see a small percentage of people who are working hard, but just need some assistance to make ends meet, and I see a small percentage of people just being lazy and sponging; though I think that percentage is growing. The rest in between are working hard at something other than their career and taking the Gov't assistance because it's easier that way. Why work hard at your job when you can work hard at something else and have the Gov't provide for your basic needs. That's just my opinion. You can decide whether the Gov't wants it that way or not. I've made up my mind.

Right now there aren't enough people in congress against what's going on to effectively oppose it. Some of those who should be against what is going on ignore the overwhelming "don't vote for this" response that they get from their constituents and vote for it anyway. Then they turn around and say, "I didn't know what was in the bill". Insanity

[executioner]

Exactly right. Being poor does not equal being lazy. Being lazy equals being lazy, and if you're lazy, no handout for you. Gov't doesn't differentiate between the two. They give a handout to everyone.

Well, how does one differentiate, then? How do you know who is hard working enough to deserve a handout and who isn't? Should the church only help those who are hard working? What does Scripture say about this?

I'm certainly not in a position to differentiate. That's why you put enough rules and restrictions into these programs to weed out the sponges and not create a free for all, or breed some of the trends we're seeing. Bill Clinton tried introducing some reforms. I'm hearing now that Obama wants to repeal those reforms.

Capitalism, the polar opposite of Socialism, isn't that much better when it encourages the individual to hoard money and step on everyone they need to in order to get to the top. I'm not sure how that is a far and away better system.

Socialism, even if the intent is pure, doesn't work. At least in the context I mentioned earlier. Capitalism is best when society as a whole remains pegged to God and morality.

As for people being lazy or not, this is how I see it. I can't throw up numbers, so it's just my opinion. I see a small percentage of people who are working hard, but just need some assistance to make ends meet, and I see a small percentage of people just being lazy and sponging; though I think that percentage is growing. The rest in between are working hard at something other than their career and taking the Gov't assistance because it's easier that way. Why work hard at your job when you can work hard at something else and have the Gov't provide for your basic needs. That's just my opinion. You can decide whether the Gov't wants it that way or not. I've made up my mind.

Right now there aren't enough people in congress against what's going on to effectively oppose it. Some of those who should be against what is going on ignore the overwhelming "don't vote for this" response that they get from their constituents and vote for it anyway. Then they turn around and say, "I didn't know what was in the bill". Insanity

most in congress said they only read a small portion of this new bailout plan, and some of it was not even available for reading until after they were told they had to vote.
No one here is going to change my mind about the poor; your life and circumstances are made up of what you make out of it. God will always provide for his children.

[charl]

Show me a socialist nation where Christianity is unimpeded. There isn't one.

Saskatchewan had a socialist government ran by Christian ministers. Why you people keep conveniently forgetting that?

And what about lazy people destined for the inner circle of the seventh level of hell instead of the sixth??

[brent]

Socialism, Communism, etc CANNOT go hand in hand with Christianity.

[executioner]

Socialism, Communism, etc CANNOT go hand in hand with Christianity.

Agreed

[charl]

Why ever not? Is one of the central tenets of socialism Jesus is not God of something? (it isn't BTW). How do you deal with the christian socialist movements?

Just proclaiming it does not make it so. You are no prophets.

[brent]

Why ever not? Is one of the central tenets of socialism Jesus is not God of something? (it isn't BTW).

Just proclaiming it does not make it so. You are no prophets.

Carl Marx thought so.

[charl]

I didn't realize unbelievers were your standard for Christian doctrine.

Besides, Marx tried to replace Christianity. That is take the good and remove God from the equation. How does that work in your schema of just saying things and making them so?