Crap. What next?

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:14 am

charl wrote:I didn't realize unbelievers were your standard for Christian doctrine.

Besides, Marx tried to replace Christianity. That is take the good and remove God from the equation. How does that work in your schema of just saying things and making them so?

That's the problem with Evangelical Christian in the US. They've been told that all Socialism is evil because of men like Karl Marx. They don't recognize that Jesus preached Socialism and they don't dissociate Humanistic Socialism from other forms of Socialism.

brent · Post by **brent** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:32 am

That's YUOR problem. You don't understand that the US IS headed that way. It started in the 40s, was expidited in the 60s and 70s, and now we are seeing Obama and his policies push us closer.

I do not subscribe to replacement theology. You cannot insert any country today with Isreal of the OT. You cannot even insert Isreal today with Isreal of the OT. As for Jesus' teaching, he was not teaching socialism per se as we know it today. I am not against that. I AM against the people being slaves of a government that was given power by the people it dictates over. I am against that government leaving it's first love, and mandating that the people do the same. I am against a government that is silencing free speech, freedom of religion, freedom period. I am against a government that wishes to buy people off, keeping them in slavery, instead of innovating solutions for problems that they were originally empowered to do.

I am all for people helping one another. I am all for sharing. I am all for community. But socialism is a crock of poop, because there is someone at the top (the government) controlling it, deciding who gets what, and at what price. Jesus did not teach this. There is to be joyful giving, with the left hand not knowing what the right is doing.

Don't bash us in the US. Just because we have a different revelation of things does not mean you are right in this matter. The US revelation of the gospel and how we should be configured as a government and people is darn near the sole reason for the gospel being preached throughout the world at one time. We provide more missions and help of every kind than any other nation. So, we are not perfect, but we do believe if being governed from the inside out, and not the outside in like socialism requires.

gman · Post by **gman** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 1:00 pm

I'm curious why, prior to any lurch toward socialism in the U.S., the lurchers do their best to remove God from the equation; to get God out of society. It seems that any form of Gov't breaks down when you divorce from God. Capitalism falters because you get unbridled greed. The history for socialism, fascism, etc. is no better.
Socialism in nations where religious freedom is tolerated and God is not cast aside, might work to an extent, but it won't lead to the freedom and prosperity enjoyed through capitalism.
I think you could make the case that private individuals and organizations have been much more effective around the world then the gov't just dropping in bags of cash.
What Obama is proposing now will put a real hurt on charity in the U.S.
We're witnessing prime time David Copperfield at its best.

I'm rambling and scatterbrained a bit, so I'll just go back to work.

GMan

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:00 pm

I don't really feel like quoting and regurgitating everything I've stated in this thread, but I would like to say this:

Go back through this thread and tell me where anyone has endorsed President Obama or said that the US should be a Socialist nation.

I'd also like to see an answer to Char's question:

How do you deal with the christian socialist movements?

brent · Post by **brent** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:54 pm

separateunion wrote:I don't really feel like quoting and regurgitating everything I've stated in this thread, but I would like to say this:

Go back through this thread and tell me where anyone has endorsed President Obama or said that the US should be a Socialist nation.

I'd also like to see an answer to Char's question:

How do you deal with the christian socialist movements?

SU, maybe nobody here has, but if you watch the news, you will see that we, the USA are becoming socialists as we speak. Even some of the dems are giving Obama a second thought, thinking that he was not as left wing as he is. Obama is on record stating that the wealth needs to be redistributed to the people that deserve it. The people he is going to give money to are not necessarily those that educate themselves, earn it themselves, save themselves, invest themselves.

As far as the Christian socialist movements are concerned, we are talking here and now about a Christian with GOD in it's roots, in it's founding documents, in it's federal buildings (church services were at one time preached by presidents and some of them took place weekly in our nation's capital buildings), etc, etc.

We have gone from a nation that established government to work on our behalf, to a nation where we work for the government. We fear those we PAY to represent us. They hold our testi's in their hands, and they squeeze at will.

Famous quotes:

Socialism is like a dream. Sooner or later you wake up to reality. The substance of the eminent Socialist gentleman's speech is that making a profit is a sin. It is my belief that the real sin is taking a loss! -Winston Churchill

Under socialism all will govern in turn and will soon become accustomed to no one governing.

The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation.

The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. (What a parallel. Look what our government under Obama is doing to us!!!)

The press should be not only a collective propagandist and a collective agitator, but also a collective organizer of the masses. (Hmmmm. What was Obama's claim to fame? Organizing people to stage demonstrations. What is he trying to do now? Go in the back door and silence Christian radio and conservative talk radio.)

The goal of socialism is communism. -Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (This guy ought to know something about socialism and communism, don't you think?)

What is a Communist? One who has yearnings for equal division of unequal earnings. -Ebenezer Elliot

Communism is inequality, but not as property is. Property is exploitation of the weak by the strong. Communism is exploitation of the strong by the weak. -Pierre Joseph Proudhon

The theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property. -Karl Marx

Communism has never come to power in a country that was not disrupted by war or corruption, or both. -John F. Kennedy

Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy. -Mao Zedong

charl · Post by **charl** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:25 am

Why you guys keep Forgetting the ministers in SK??

So Brent, you must be a fan of Rushdoony. Since there is a "Christian" way to govern and all. Who you looking at for Sanhedrin?

I also find it interesting you don't know the difference between socialism and communism. Ever read 1984? Written by a socialist you know.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:01 am

charl wrote:I also find it interesting you don't know the difference between socialism and communism.

The lack of understanding of this key difference in the US is astounding. And the fact that Christians cannot differentiate between humanist philosophy and Christian philosophy is disturbing. There is "good" socialism and capitalism as well as "bad" socialism and capitalism (in theory, of course). It all depends on how you define your worldview.

Fighting to keep this country capitalist or whatever isn't going to save us or anyone else when the country is already morally bankrupt. Socialism isn't the problem here. Capitalism is not what made this country what it is (was) and fighting to keep it that way isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. Governments don't save, the Gospel does.

On a different note, how do you feel about Rushdooney, Char? My pastor in Washington, Brian Abshire, studied closely with him for many years. According to Abshire, Francis Schaeffer took most of the ideas for his books straight from Rushdooney.

Vic · Post by **Vic** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:32 am

separateunion wrote:
Socialism isn't the problem here. Capitalism is not what made this country what it is (was) and fighting to keep it that way isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. Governments don't save, the Gospel does.

Amen. I agree 100%. The whole world is in a fallen state since Adam. Anything that man comes up with is also fallen and that includes capitalism, socialism, communism, democracy and all the other ism schisms.

However, a Christian, being in fellowship with God is able to redeem these fallen instruments and turn them into wonderful systems of governments. Am not an American but I hear great things abt the founding fathers of America, not because of what system of Government they had, but because they had Christ in them, and this reflected on how they governed.

At the end of the world, all governments will be destroyed and we will be co-rulers in a theocratic system- the God created system of Government. Amen.

gman · Post by **gman** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:43 am

separateunion wrote:
charl wrote:I also find it interesting you don't know the difference between socialism and communism.
Capitalism is not what made this country what it is (was)

I beg to differ there, but that's my opinion. I'm inclined to believe that had America adopted a socialist form og Gov't at the outset, America would not exist as we know it today.
It's been said that socialism is the step in between capitalism and communism. The communist party of America seems to be in love with Barack Obama and his policies.
The socialism that's coming in the U.S. will destroy the American way of life, crush the American dream, raise the cost of living dramatically, bring us crushing tax rates, insane environmental policies in the name of something that doesn't exist, and on and on. That's why I'm against it. It might not be evil, but I don't want to live as I've described. I don't see where it says I have to either.
I suppose the evil is in the greed, arrogance, pride, etc. of the power hungry politicians driving this movement.

GMan

charl · Post by **charl** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:20 pm

Schaeffer's ideas are that out there eh? Hmm. I don't think you are really theonomist material, Jason.

Thing that's odd is that someone far cleverer than me in economic history noted a while back that even Adam Smith, the founder of the free market (which has crashed or nearly crashed how many times now?) also stated the wealthy should pay proportionately higher taxes. Yet to many even this sounds "socialist"

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:12 am

charl wrote:Schaeffer's ideas are that out there eh? Hmm. I don't think you are really theonomist material, Jason.

I never claimed to be.

charl · Post by **charl** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:09 pm

Rushdoony most undoubtedly was. This is his main contribution to christian thought.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:25 pm

charl wrote:Rushdoony most undoubtedly was. This is his main contribution to christian thought.

I never claimed to subsribe to his theological tenets. I merely mentioned a quaint anecdote. I've never read any of his writings, but I have read a few of Schaeffer's books and I mostly agreed with them.

charl · Post by **charl** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:52 pm

Yeah but what do you agree with Schaeffer on? Like what does buddy mean when he says Schaeffer got "most of his ideas" from Rushdoony? I mean there are things I would agree with Rushdoony on, but certainly not on what he is known for (that being theonomy) and I'd agree with Schaeffer on things like mysticism (not impressionists though).

I don't really agree with the Kuyperian (named after Abraham Kuyper) models. I don't think they foresaw what now is. Two kingdoms of a type can deal with it, though admittedly it should be tempered.

separateunion · Post by **separateunion** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:38 pm

Having never read a single writing of Rushdooney, I don't know where he and Schaeffer agree. I was merely told in a nice way that Schaeffer ransackingly plagurized Rushdooney.

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Crap. What next?

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