Crap. What next?

[p-freak]

Then I look at Holland and see how their system REALLY does not work.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I've lived in the Netherlands for 27 years and the health care system works perfectly well. Please explain to me what's wrong with it.

And since I've never been in the USA and I don't know how your health care system works, I'd like not to get involved in a discussion about it.

[separateunion]

To many US Christians, Socialism is the ultimate evil. It flows from our unfortunate fusion of politics and religion. Most of the time their complaints of how terribly Socialism works isn't grounded in research but rather in sound bytes they heard at church or on the news.

[brent]

Show me a socialist nation where Christianity is unimpeded. There isn't one.

Marxist movements are growing in the US government. Our new president is full of it. That is what has US Christian's spooked. Socialism does not work. Study economics people. Study what government taxation and spending does to economies. Remember the Soviet Union? Even our street bums are fat.

Our EU brothers have socialistic government spending nearing 48% of their GNP. Come on. We are sitting around 43 now. Do we really want to continue spending like this? Can our great, great, great, great, great children pay for it? Never.

[separateunion]

Show me a socialist nation where Christianity is unimpeded. There isn't one.

Marxist movements are growing in the US government. Our new president is full of it. That is what has US Christian's spooked. Socialism does not work. Study economics people. Study what government taxation and spending does to economies. Remember the Soviet Union? Even our street bums are fat.

Our EU brothers have socialistic government spending nearing 48% of their GNP. Come on. We are sitting around 43 now. Do we really want to continue spending like this? Can our great, great, great, great, great children pay for it? Never.

There is nothing Christian about a republic or capitalism either. All man made system of economics and government are man-centered.

Is Christianity outlawed in any European countries? Not a single European country (most being Socialist) has outlawed Christianity to my knowledge. I'm not saying Socialism is the greatest economic or governmental system on the face of the earth, but there are far greater concerns than what kind of government system is run. Christians in this country focus much to heavily on politics and not enough on our faith and what we need to be doing as a Church.

[gman]

There is nothing Christian about a republic or capitalism either. All man made system of economics and government are man-centered.

Does it allow Christianity and charity to flourish best? I tend to think so.

Christians in this country focus much to heavily on politics and not enough on our faith and what we need to be doing as a Church.

The two are related, in my opinion. The church and individuals can only do so much as the amount of available money shrinks. Charity will die a slow death if the Gov't continues to take and take and take.

btw- a solar panel company, who happened to support Obama's spenulus bill tried a socialist business model and now they want a bailout because it didn't work.

[separateunion]

There is nothing Christian about a republic or capitalism either. All man made system of economics and government are man-centered.

Does it allow Christianity and charity to flourish best? I tend to think so.

I'm not really sure it does. Capitalism breeds greed and an every man for himself attitude.

Christians in this country focus much to heavily on politics and not enough on our faith and what we need to be doing as a Church.

The two are related, in my opinion. The church and individuals can only do so much as the amount of available money shrinks. Charity will die a slow death if the Gov't continues to take and take and take.

I would say charity is dying in this country and it has nothing to do with Socialism, it has to do with the fact that Christians are selfish and the Church doesn't do its job.

[gman]

Let me throw this into the mix. Saying socialism doesn't work can mean different things. When I say it, I mean that the American way of life, as envisioned by our founders, doesn't mix with socialism. The two are mutually exclusive. If you go after socialism you will lose the other. You will lose freedom. In that context, even if the intent is totally pure, socialism can't work. That being said, I don't think the U.S. version of socialism is devoid of greed. There's just as much greed there as there is with capitalism. Maybe I'm cynical, but I think it's more about politicians consolidating power with the federal Gov't and forcing people to be dependent on the Gov't for their survival; thereby causing them to vote for whomever promises to continue providing for them. Liberal cities have done this for decades and many of them are a mess. They loathe the rich so much because rich people can survive without the Gov't.
The dirty little secret for politicians on all sides is that they are rich also. They don't have to live like the oppressed, dependent masses because they are rich.
As for charity, there are plenty of Christians and non christians carrying their weight and then some. I don't believe that the Gov't is going socialist because the church has dropped ball. It's going socialist because it wants to. Politicians, in their own greedy self interest, want all the money, power, and control. Some of them loathe the church and don't want the church involved. You can find stories of communities, in a time of great need, rejecting faith based help.

[separateunion]

A very wise women once told me that where there is a vacuum, it will not perpetuate and will, by necessity, be filled. That is why Communism crept into so many Asian and European countries. There was a political and spiritual vacuum and the first ideology to move in took over.

The church dropped the ball on charity long ago, so something had to step in to take its place. Is it the government's job? Not really, but something, by necessity, MUST step in to fill the void. It is the way of things. Another example would be women taking on roles they were never created to fill. Men have abdicated their leadership roles, leaving the positions open for women to step in and take the place of men.

You speak as if it is a move towards Socialism that is causing the churches to be less charitable when, in fact, it is the Church's lack of charity that has caused the need for Socialism (and I'm talking socialism as an economic system, not an ideology, although the failure of the Church on many levels has also allowed the Socialist ideology to become more necessary).

You complain about the rich politicians, but how many seeker sensitive churches have leadership that is fairing extremely well financially? I'm not a big fan of Congress approving raises for themselves and mismanaging money. I'll be the first to say fiscal responsibility before more taxes, but really, we should be far more concerned with the state of the Church than what type of government is being run.

Christianity not only survived the likes of the Roman Empire and the Dark Ages, it flourished during the darkest of times, so I don't really fear Socialism squashing out the Church. I'd wager that Christians are more afraid of losing the comfortable lifestyles they live than they are that a Socialist government would destroy their religion. And that's the real issue. If the church is so charitable, why are so many Christians more worried about keeping their money (isn't it really God's money?) than they are about actually getting involved in their community?

[gman]

I see your point, but I still think a little differently. Early american progressives, liberals, communists, etc. were enamoured with European socialism and guys like Mussolini. They wanted to bring it to the United States. They started in the early 1900s laying the groundwork for an entitlement society. They capitalized on the crisis of the depression to do things they wouldn't have been able to do otherwise; an idea popular with the current administration.
They created an entitlement society where the Gov't subsidizes people. They laid the groundwork for being able to, in the future, create needs or voids that only the Gov't can fill.
I'm all for churches helping people out short term with finances, food, shelter, or whatever, and helping them get back to being able to take care of themselves, but I think the argument can be made that the Church should have no part of subsidizing people.
Personally, I don't buy into socialism being necessary, nor do I see the voids that the Gov't claims to be filling or wants to fill as being the giant chasms they make them out to be.
Some people say socialism isn't charity. I'm not a scholar and can't argue that one way or the other, but I do see where they are coming from.
Maybe I'll grant you that there are needs out there and the Gov't steps in to fill those needs when others don't, but I don't personally see them doing so out of charity. I see them as capitalizing on an opportunity to grab more power and money.

[brent]

Capitalism breeds greed and an every man for himself attitude.

False. As evidenced in heaven before creation, you don't need no stinkin economy for that to happen. On earth it exists in every economy. People are just able to have more of whatever they want in a successful free-market economy. So, big money looks worse than three extra goats and a bigger rock than anyone else has.

I would bet that it is made worse in situations where all of the people have little to nothing, regardless of the work and contributions they do or do not make. Crime was out of control in socialist, communist, Russia.

Look, I am glad that I spurred some activity on the ole' zone. I like stirrin' the pot and seeing who has intelligent thought. I think that we should have programs for real people in need, and not the lazy-snot people who choose not to learn, choose not to graduate, choose not to work, choose not to make a difference. Our history and economy is FULL of broke immigrants with NOTHING coming to this country, only to work hard and become VERY successful. There are too many minority politicians and military commanders who had all of the odds stacked against them, that kicked the worlds butt.

Why can't people stop looking for a hand out when a hand up has been extended?

[separateunion]

Capitalism breeds greed and an every man for himself attitude.

False. As evidenced in heaven before creation, you don't need no stinkin economy for that to happen. On earth it exists in every economy.

I never said it didn't exist in any other type of economy, but it is far worse on a personal level than most other economic systems. No man made economic system will ever be perfect.

People are just able to have more of whatever they want in a successful free-market economy.

That's not necessarily a good thing and further proves my point. Mankind, being fallen, will too often get whatever they want (selfishness) at the expense of doing good.

I would bet that it is made worse in situations where all of the people have little to nothing, regardless of the work and contributions they do or do not make. Crime was out of control in socialist, communist, Russia.

Everyone loves to use Russia (and to a lesser extent, China) as the measuring stick of Socialism. However, how does crime in the US compare to crime in Socialist European countries? Is crime even the proper measure for how well an economy/governmental structure performs?

I think that we should have programs for real people in need, and not the lazy-snot people who choose not to learn, choose not to graduate, choose not to work, choose not to make a difference.

Unfortunately, your assumption (and the assumption of many Christians who have been duped by the Republican party) is that generally, poor people are poor because they choose to be. Are there poor people who milk the system? Sure, and the percentages are probably very similar to the number of rich people who milk the system. It works both ways.

Our history and economy is FULL of broke immigrants with NOTHING coming to this country, only to work hard and become VERY successful. There are too many minority politicians and military commanders who had all of the odds stacked against them, that kicked the worlds butt.

No one has denied this, but an individuals inability to be successful does not even remotely mean that they have not diligently tried. The "American dream" does not come true for all and we shouldn't stick our noses up to those who have had tragedy and bad luck hinder them and act as if they could be successful if they just tried harder.

Why can't people stop looking for a hand out when a hand up has been extended?

Not everyone is, and that's the major issue here: the assumption that those who take handouts are usually working the system, when that's just not true. More often than not, people take the handouts because they really do need them. I've personally experienced poverty stricken areas where there were literally no jobs. How is a person supposed to find a job when jobs don't exist? Should we give people in this situation grief for taking aid when it's available?

[brent]

Again, you are not paying attention. I said that is has nothing to do with people that NEED and/or deserve a handout that are in a spot. I am talking about the people that refuse to do something on their own, or expect something because of their skin color, great, great, great, great, great grandfather's country of origin, or something. I am talking about people who have no self control, no drive, no ambition, no education, no hope because they are screwing themselves with poor decision making. If you are a person like that, then I am talking about you. If not, don't sweat it.

I know people who are making $100k right now, doing nothing, sitting at home, because GM quit making their cars on their line three years ago. They think that they deserve it.

I know people that think that black people cannot be anything other than door mats to the white people, and they refuse to better themselves. I work with some. They think that they should get paid for doing nothing. They expected Obama to right the wrongs and send them a big fat check. They are a bit mad that they will be getting a tax credit equating to $8 a pay period. Whoopie. Meanwhile the majority of the NBA, NFL and a college sports are made up of intelligent, college educated, goal achieving people who are not white.

I know of Mexican immigrants that have built successful businesses here, while the people of the urban core cry out "no opportunities, no fairness, we are oppressed!" Bull. It isn't just them.

There are jobs here, just not jobs that people will take. They won't take them because of their pride. They would rather get a hand out and stay home.

We have become a people that expect something. We expect things to be easy. We expect for someone to pick up the pieces when things fall apart. Well that just isn't reality for most people around the world. And now we are getting a lesson that it isn't going to happen for the USA either.

This is from the Wall Street Journal in October of 08:

Some new studies show far fewer students completing high school with diplomas than long believed. "Whereas the conventional wisdom had long placed the graduation rate around 85%, a growing consensus has emerged that only about seven in 10 students are actually successfully finishing high school" in four years, said a study by the Editorial Projects in Education Research Center, a nonprofit group based in Bethesda, Md. It was released this year by America's Promise Alliance, a nonpartisan advocacy group for youth. In the nation's 50 largest cities, the graduation rate was 52%.

The longstanding American dropout problem may be especially thorny now, with a looming recession. Cutting the number of dropouts in half would generate $45 billion annually in new tax revenue, according to America's Promise -- assuming there are ultimately enough jobs to accommodate the graduates.

We need the government to have these dropouts sign a form stating that they acknowledge they will never receive government support funded by tax dollars, if they drop out. Because dropouts most often suck off the government in the future. It is hard enough for me to feed my family. I should not have to feed some lazy idiot and his because he thought school was for fools.

[brent]

Why isn't this in the politics board, it's clear this was never about prayer, but rather just a thread to bash the lazy poor.

It was about prayer. My daughter cam home today by the way. She had a chance to share her faith with a few of the nurses. The nurses thanked her for her spirit and kindness. She is already communicating with her teachers about a walk, etc. God was proud I am sure.

[executioner]

Why isn't this in the politics board, it's clear this was never about prayer, but rather just a thread to bash the lazy poor.

Well maybe it is time they get up off their lazy bums and find work. The jobs are out there but they don't want to do them; They would rather have the government and church handouts to pay their way.

[gman]

I think we agree on principal. Like Brent said, people who actually need help should get it. We can argue whose responsibility it is, and chicken and egg over whether the church dropepd the ball or gov't foreceably took it. I think both are true to an extent. Where we seem to differ is on the nature of Gov't and their intent. I see them, with most things, giving assistance to 100 people just to cover the 5 people who actually need it. Take the healthcare issue. I think it would be more efficient and cost effective for Gov't to say, if you really want healthcare, choose a private insurance, send us this form, and we'll cut a check to help you pay for it. What they do instead is create a Gov't insurance program that covers a massive swath of people and allows the Gov't to make the decisions on treatment, quality of life, etc. etc., and when the numbers of people who actually take it doesn't match up with the numbers they were pushing, they create another layer of beauracracy to "persuade" people to take it.
The thought that comes to mind for me is charity equals charity, socialism equals enslavement and oppression. I see it that way because I live in a country where we have known something different. People who have only ever known socialism might not see it that way.