Postmillennial eschatology

micah · Post by **micah** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:08 pm

Ok, I'm not sure what all your views of the end-times are. I suppose most are pre-millennial (Christ comes back and sets up a literal thousand year reign as specified in Revelation 20). Petra certainly seems to be premil -- "All the King's Horses" leaves little doubt about that, and "Perfect World" to a lesser extent.

I've tended to lean towards the premil position my whole life. Just last week, however, I read the book Paradise Restored by David Chilton. It makes a DANG good case for the postmil position.

If anyone wants to be challenged to look at things a somewhat different way, I'd encourage you to read it. I'd love to hear what you think of it. It is freely available online here:
http://www.freebooks.com/docs/html/dcpr/dcpr.html

Summary of the position: Christ "came" in judgement of national Israel in 70 AD. This fulfilled Matthew 24, at least through verse 34. That was the Tribulation, the Antichrist, the "Mark of the Beast" etc, etc... all ancient history! I used to be highly critical of reading the Bible that way, but said book lays it out in a way that seems hard to refute. It takes seriously Christ's words that "this generation" would not pass away before it was fulfilled. The premil way of explaining that one away has troubled me for many years. Christ's "coming" of Revelation 19 as "KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS" has been in the process of being fulfilled ever since then. The Gospel can be expected to literally fill the whole world BEFORE Christ's second physical coming and the resurrection. (See Daniel 2, where the stone grows to fill the earth; Ezekiel 47, which describes the ever growing River; and Matthew 13:31-32, the Kingdom is like the largest tree.) We are in the "millennium" now.

I'm not 100% sold on this position yet, but it makes so much sense that I think I'll have to switch my view unless someone can give me a compelling reason not to.

If it is the truth of eschatology, it is pretty exciting! It means that we will prevail, here on earth in this age, and not just after Christ's appearing! See also Psalm 110:1, which promises that Jesus must reign until all His enemies are under His feet.

epdc · Post by **epdc** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:15 pm

I can`t read it right now but i will later

LexingtonPethead · Post by **LexingtonPethead** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:11 pm

I ascribe to the A-millenial view... no literal setup of an earthly kingdom. When Christ comes back, He will judge the unsaved, and the world as we know it on earth will cease to exist.

Mostly, I don't think literal interpretations of end-times are Biblical when taken in context with the whole Bible and the events of the past near-2000 years.

The Bible is filled with imagery and apocalyptic language. Literal interpretations are, I believe for the most part, not the intent of scripture.

Careful, Micah... this is a thread that could easily get out of hand.

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:17 pm

Things have been pretty calm around here surprisingly, LOL.

Should I stir things up and mention the Left Behind series?

I actually need to study this a little more carefully, both sides make valid points.

LexingtonPethead · Post by **LexingtonPethead** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:21 pm

Shell wrote:Things have been pretty calm around here surprisingly, LOL.

Should I stir things up and mention the Left Behind series?

I actually need to study this a little more carefully, both sides make valid points.

I've never read the Left Behind series mainly because I don't agree with its theology.

Okay, maybe I should read it because it's Christian fiction as opposed to reading something secular, but I would just dwell on my theological differences.

It's kinda like me trying to watch an Alec Baldwin movie, or a Susan Sarandon or Tim Robbins movie with me being such a conservative.

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:34 pm

Oh, please, don't get me started on Susan Sarandan and Tim Robbins...I'm afraid what I might say wouldn't be fit for a Christian message board, LOL.

I read the series out of curiousity, it's a fictional account of what someone thinks might happen. The first one was okay, but the rest of them were kind of blah. They weren't really very well written...The characters and dialogue were dull, and in the end of the last book they were jumping around from scene to scene so much I couldn't tell what was supposed to be going on. It's enough to make an English major tear her hair out.

micah · Post by **micah** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:06 pm

I read the LB series and enjoyed them. The writing wasn't bad. But then, I've read very little fiction so I'm not that discriminating.

I've also tended to lean pre-trib, so although I thought some of it was off or extreme, I agreed with much of the theology.

Lexington, I'd be interested in why one would accept a-mil over postmil. See the verses I mentioned ... they DO seem to talk about an ever-expanding Kingdom, until it literally covers the whole earth.

Also, I just noticed that the premil assumption is that a "half-baked" Kingdom would cover maybe a fourth of the earth at best, then Christ would come and instantly make it cover ALL the earth. Postmil talks about a steadily increasing Kingdom that will grow to fill the earth with Christ's help. If you look at the verses I mentioned about an expanding Kingdom, they all seem to imply that it will grow over time. I don't see much evidence of an instantaneous transformation from a small Kingdom to a global one.

I think I also need to read a good book that explains everything from the historic Premil (post-trib rapture) position. Its followers make some good points also.

Right now my biggest issue with the postmil position is the date of Revelation's writing. There seems to be some good internal evidence that it was written in the 90s, but the postmil position critically hinges on it heing written at least a year or two before AD70. Its adherents will insist that the evidence confirms the earlier date. Personally I'm not 100% convinced.

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:12 pm

Chalk it up to being an English major and a bookworm, I'm picky. That doesn't mean other people can't or won't like it. LOL. It was interesting to read about what they thought might happen.

LexingtonPethead · Post by **LexingtonPethead** » Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:47 pm

micah wrote: Lexington, I'd be interested in why one would accept a-mil over postmil. See the verses I mentioned ... they DO seem to talk about an ever-expanding Kingdom, until it literally covers the whole earth.

Well, because the kingdom Jesus always referred to was spiritual - not physical. Pre-mil, in my opionion, has always made the same assumption that the Jews always made - that Christ would be a mighty warrior in the physical and lead Israel to independence (from Rome) and set up an earthly utopia on earth. That wasn't Jesus' purpose then, and I don't believe it is now.

There is more scripture to support that at Christ's return, there will be a final judgement, not an earthly kingdom (Matthew 25).

I've actually become pretty rusty with all this. I originally was pre-mil until my step-father put a book in my path when I was a junior in high school called "Why The Pre-Millenial Doctrine Is Not Biblical". I haven't seen the book since high school, but I was very on top of it back then. This would be a good time to do some reviewing!

Enosh · Post by **Enosh** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:35 am

Revelation says there will be a new Heaven and a new earth, and this earth will reel to and fro like a drunkered and burn. I believe the Kingdom you're referring to will not be on this earth but the next.

Honestly, I don't get into the whole end times craze that's been going around. It's almost as bad as the whole Praise and worship music fad. The important thing is not when Jesus is coming, but that He is coming and that we should be ready. He even said that no man will know that day or hour. So that shows me that all the time and money spent on trying to figure it out is wasted. We could be trying to reach people for Christ instead of cracking the code to the return of Chirst.

Anyone who thinks they have it figuered out is wrong. Jesus said so Himself. That is why I don't read books on the subject. I read the Bible, and know that I must stay ready to meet Him whenever that time comes. Weather I am raptured, or if I die. Allot of people study this topic intensely, but to me this is what it comes down to.

If you really want to confuse yourself, get into end times prophesy. I once saw three ministers on TBN, who took turns and each one preached a message about when Jesus was coming. PRE- MID- and POST- Tribulation. I sat there as each preacher made his point. And you know what? They all were convincing. I thought, "For a person tuning in to see this that doesn't know Christ, this has to be confusing. Each way of thinking can be convincing, but only God knows for sure how it will all turn out in the end.

My two cents

LexingtonPethead · Post by **LexingtonPethead** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:41 am

You're right, Enosh.

Essentially, the A-millenial theory supports all that you say. It purports that the main events that have not happened yet are the second coming and the Day of Judgement.

If we stay focused on that which is the prize, we'll be fine.

executioner · Post by **executioner** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:32 pm

I think we need to be looking toward God for the answers and not looking through books that were written by man. I am very leery about what man has to say about the end times. Everybody has a different outlook on this subject and we have a tendency to find a non scripture device and believe it with everything. I'm not meaning to sound negative I'm just speaking from experience. I have a brother that got into end times theology a few years back with a baptist church and now him and those people at his church are no longer following God and are into some very wicked stuff.

epdc · Post by **epdc** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:45 pm

I read some books of the left behind series. I didn`t continue because at the christian bookstore that didn`t wanted to borrow me those anymore

(i was on a reader`s club there where you read a book for two weeks and then you make a report to the bookstore about it but they only borrow you books if there are more than one).

I like the first one , the rest, well, the rest started to get confusing and confusing but i think it was a good story. Seemed that this people really investigated stuff related with the bible and the world ya know. What I like about them was that everything seems real. Sometimes yeah, we see "Jesus will come back and this and this will happen" but we don`t understand the concept, do you know what I mean?, this books kinda made the Bible scriptures more alive ya know. Of course, I don`t mean that I think that everything that says in those books is the whole truth but it was a very good theory of the facts.

gosh, I thought what micah put there was an article not a book wow!, definitely gotta read it later.

epdc · Post by **epdc** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:48 pm

that theory micah is showing:

I don`t think people has to believe that 100% but I think is a good theory, I like to read that kind of stuff , I like to be mind open even if don`t believe it or i do. The Bible has many mmm interpretations? ya know, many ways of seeing it and reading and that amazes me, because you can`t do many different readings to any other book as with the Bible.

micah · Post by **micah** » Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:13 pm

LexingtonPethead wrote:Well, because the kingdom Jesus always referred to was spiritual - not physical.

Correct; actually I think the said book refers to that. He believes that near the end, the world will still be made up of nations, but they will be largely Christian nations (with possibly a few exceptions).

I'm still not totally convinced either way. Bits and pieces of the different theories are likely true.

However, I *do* think studying prophecy is important, because a third of the Bible is prophecy, and Revelation is the only book of the Bible to pronounce a special blessing on those who read and understand it!

And yes, it's important to know what God says about it, not what some guy says.

Overall, it does seem like the postmil position can be reconciled with a lot more Scriptures than I had previously thought. But maybe it is oversimplifying it by saying that nearly all prophecy happenned in AD 70.

It also has the potential to lead to the heresy of full preterism, the belief that even the final judgement and heaven and hell were symbolically fulfilled then.

In fact, Chilton, the author of this book, went that way later in his life before he died.

But, the presented evidence that the Tribulation happened at that point seems reasonably sound. That would be good news to a lot of people who were dreading going through it!

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