BUSH WINS! BUSH WINS!

[winterlens]

We have a difference in opinion here. Matthew can say all he wants about how he thinks the church today is not grounded in theology or discipleship, but that doesn't make it true. How in the world can anyone make an all-encompassing statement like that?

That's a fair question; I'm sure neither Matthew nor I has been to every church in our respective domains of influence.

But I share his opinion, mostly because of what I read online from people from a variety of denominations. I used to be a regular contributed to the newsgroup soc.religion.christian.bible-study, and bad theology is extremely commonplace there. (There's a higher percentage of good theology than the norm as well, though.)

I get the same impression from listening to CCM, where poor theology abounds, and radio programs (on occasion). There are great Bible teachers out there, but their numbers are dwindling, and people's appreciation for the merit of theology has gone with it.

I guess it reflects that America is a much more conservative country than the rest of the world, and it shows in our churches and in the message we proclaim.

I don't know that there is necessarily a correlation between a conservative theology and a conservative lifestyle or opinion on politics. (Indeed, my non-Christian friends run the gamut, from flamboyant Republican to repressive Democrat).

There is a tendency in the States among Christians to associate the two, which I think happened here. Steve Camp subscribes to reformed theology, which is more conservative and studious than most modern denominantions (e.g., AoG and other pentacostals, baptists, et c.). But his political views oppose the politics of those less conservative denominations.

Now having said that, there are also some very LIBERAL churches in America that are nothing more than social clubs. Their members are no more Christian than the people in your local Planned Parenthood. But these churches do not characterize the church as a whole - at least not in America.

I think this is an extremely dangerous way to look at things. Your definition of "Christian" doesn't describe theology, but lifestyle. Who says Christians can't work at Planned Parenthood?

Politics and theology in general should not be mixed, especially, I think, in a republic or democracy. I think we are called by God to be godly in our sphere of influence and the domain which he gives us to control. That domain is usually not the lifestyle of someone else. But as Christians, we often use political power in order to control that which isn't ours to control. Personally I wish we had a monarchy.

[LexingtonPethead]

I don't know that there is necessarily a correlation between a conservative theology and a conservative lifestyle or opinion on politics. (Indeed, my non-Christian friends run the gamut, from flamboyant Republican to repressive Democrat).

In America, we have a representative form of government. We elect public officials to represent our interests. When evangelicals get out the vote, we elect those who share and represent our values. Often, this affects the laws that are legislated, executive orders, judge appointments, etc... So yes - there is a very strong correlation between Christianity and politics.

The reason you see this correlation in America is because we have vastly more evangelicals in the United States than in other countries by comparison. That's why you see us elect Presidents who are Christians and why some members of Congress are Christians. If you stop and think about it, this should be obvious.

Conversely, the reason most other countries are far more secular and socialistic and liberal is because of the overall lack of evangelical Christianity in those countries.

And if you look at countries where true Christianity is almost non-existent, you almost always have a dictator in power. Not to mention rampant corruption.

Do you see a correlation yet?

I think this is an extremely dangerous way to look at things. Your definition of "Christian" doesn't describe theology, but lifestyle. Who says Christians can't work at Planned Parenthood?

I don't know much about you, Winterlens. But in making this kind of statement, I have to assume you do not live in the United States and therefore you have no idea what Planned Parenthood is. Because I can assure you - no true Christian could work for an organization like Planned Parenthood. It just isn't possible. Unless they're on some secret mission to evangelize the PP staff, or unless they just got saved and need that job until they can find a new one.

But you are right about one thing. My definition of a Christian doesn't describe theology - it describes a lifestyle - a lifestyle that is the evidence of Christian who has surrendered his/her life to Christ. When a person has come to Christ, their lives and values change as a result. The life decisions a Christian makes must be congruent with their values. For example, what they do for a living must be in alignment with their values. So I think my statement (that you think is dangerous) is really very accurate.

[Shell]

I do understand what you're saying, David, but if you're talking about a job where absolutely nothing wrong goes on, you're going to be looking around for a job for a long time...I know of people who quit their jobs in the Christian music industry because of all the garbage that went on. I quit a job at a "Christian" preschool (this was a long time ago) because I got fed up with the garbage and the hypocrisy that went on, as soon as I was able to. That wasn't all there was to it, but it the main reason. Some of the stuff that goes on in Christian companies is worse than in secular companies, at least the secular companies don't pretend to be something they're not or try to hide their sin behind a label. I guess my point is, people are people no matter where they work, and we have to operate within the world's system. The Bible gives us guidelines to deal with that.

Maybe I should ask you what jobs you have in mind that go with a Christian lifestyle. And Winterlens is from the U.S.

[LexingtonPethead]

Oh I completely agree with you, Shell. I was using Planned Parenthood as an extreme example where the very nature of the job would go against the grain of any Christian. Another example I could have used would be that a Christian woman would not work in a night club as a stripper. Duh!! In the examples you gave, it's a judgement call onsofar as one's tolerance level. Of course every job will have drawbacks and moral choices to make... everyday. If someone feels they're expected to act unethically or immorally on the job and it continues to escalate, then obviously, they need to find something else to do. The list could go on and on.

Jobs that go with a Christian lifestyle? One with which you can do your job and you don't care if everything you did showed up in the newspaper for everyone to read.
There is nothing "spiritual" about what I do for a living, but I feel ethically good about it most of the time.

By the way, in the early to mid 90s, I worked for a Christian broadcasting company selling advertising for an FM/AM combo in Indianapolis. Though the money wasn't all that great, I had some of my best experiences there. The GM was one of the Godliest men I have ever known, and one of the most professional. Though there were differences in opinion at times, it was an outstanding Christian work environment.

[winterlens]

I don't know that there is necessarily a correlation between a conservative theology and a conservative lifestyle or opinion on politics. (Indeed, my non-Christian friends run the gamut, from flamboyant Republican to repressive Democrat).

In America, we have a representative form of government. We elect public officials to represent our interests. When evangelicals get out the vote, we elect those who share and represent our values. Often, this affects the laws that are legislated, executive orders, judge appointments, etc... So yes - there is a very strong correlation between Christianity and politics.

I'm not trying to nitpick, but I wasn't talking about the government.

I was pointing out that people with conservative theology may not believe that the church should be involved in politics--like Steve Camp (and myself). People should vote according to their convictions, but their convictions should not be shaped by their pastors or denomination.

God is the one who appoints our leaders. Sometimes he uses voting, and sometimes he uses the Supreme Court. But Christians would do well to remember that God's man is always in the White House (without exception). We should vote according to our consciences, of course. But we should avoid the train of thought that says, "All Christians vote in such and such a way."

Because I can assure you - no true Christian could work for an organization like Planned Parenthood. It just isn't possible. Unless they're on some secret mission to evangelize the PP staff, or unless they just got saved and need that job until they can find a new one.

This depends on whether or not you know all of the services that Planned Parenthood provides. They don't just do abortion. You can read about some of their perspective from their mission statement: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about/ ... ssion.html .

For what it's worth, I know a Christian--a young one, but a solid one--who applied to work at Planned Parenthood to provide what she felt was good counselling. She cares for people who are pregnant and don't know what to do or to whom to turn.

But you are right about one thing. My definition of a Christian doesn't describe theology - it describes a lifestyle - a lifestyle that is the evidence of Christian who has surrendered his/her life to Christ.

Then Mormons are Christians too. They surrender their lives to Christ just as well as we do (of course, it's the wrong Christ; and the only way we know that is through theology). And athiests are plenty moral--they may not know Christ very well, but they sure do live like it.

Our lifestyles certainly do, and should, reflect the love we have for our Savior. I will never argue that personal immorality is the hallmark of a mature believer. But personal morality doesn't make us a believer. It is our theology that makes us Christian.

[executioner]

Planned Parenthood is being investigated in our state for not giving patients all their options when it comes to their circumstances. They are known world wide for telling young girls the only way to go is to have an abortion. They also get most of their funding from the United Way and Lifetime Televison Network; Which are the 2 biggest supporters($$$ wise) of Abortion clinics around the World. 17% of United Way's funds go to abortion clinics. That is the highest % of funds in their organization. If you give to these organizations I believe you are supporting murders.

[LexingtonPethead]

I'm not trying to nitpick, but I wasn't talking about the government.

I was pointing out that people with conservative theology may not believe that the church should be involved in politics--like Steve Camp (and myself). People should vote according to their convictions, but their convictions should not be shaped by their pastors or denomination.

God is the one who appoints our leaders. Sometimes he uses voting, and sometimes he uses the Supreme Court. But Christians would do well to remember that God's man is always in the White House (without exception). We should vote according to our consciences, of course. But we should avoid the train of thought that says, "All Christians vote in such and such a way."

I agree that pastors, nor their denominations should dictate to their congregations how to vote. But that's exactly what liberal churches do - particularly in black churches where you have the John Kerrys of the world going in there campaigning on Sunday morning. Democrats do this with EVERY election, and I agree with you - it's wrong.

I also agree that not all Christians vote in a certain way. I believe that because there are some very politically ignorant people out there who would vote for a democrat no matter what and not know any better. This is unfortunate. But I bet if you polled evangelical Christians WHO UNDERSTAND THE ISSUES, better than 95% of them would say they usually vote with the Republicans.

This depends on whether or not you know all of the services that Planned Parenthood provides. They don't just do abortion. You can read about some of their perspective from their mission statement: http://www.plannedparenthood.org/about/ ... ssion.html .

For what it's worth, I know a Christian--a young one, but a solid one--who applied to work at Planned Parenthood to provide what she felt was good counselling. She cares for people who are pregnant and don't know what to do or to whom to turn.

Planned Parenthood is a vile organization that pushes the abortion agenda. Executioner is right - they are being investigated for not giving balanced advice. They may publicize on a website that they offer alternatives to abortion, but the reality is that they do encourage abortion. If your Christian friend is there to go against the flow, then my hat's off to her for trying to make a difference for life. Maybe I should have phased my original point regarding Planned Parenthood to say that it would not be possible for a Christian to work at Planned Parenthood believing in the so-called right to kill unborn children.

Then Mormons are Christians too. They surrender their lives to Christ just as well as we do (of course, it's the wrong Christ; and the only way we know that is through theology). And athiests are plenty moral--they may not know Christ very well, but they sure do live like it.

You missed my point. I could come back to you and say that theology doesn't save anyone either. Anyone can have head knowledge and not know Christ. Hey, they could even quote scripture - and some do - even the Mormons as you have pointed out.

My point was that if a person is truly a Christian with an authentic salvation experience, their lives change. Their values change. They become more Christ-like in their attitudes, their habits, their entire being. And this in turn affects a person's outlook on politics and other major life decisons.

[winterlens]

Planned Parenthood is being investigated in our state for not giving patients all their options when it comes to their circumstances. They are known world wide for telling young girls the only way to go is to have an abortion. They also get most of their funding from the United Way and Lifetime Televison Network; Which are the 2 biggest supporters($$$ wise) of Abortion clinics around the World. 17% of United Way's funds go to abortion clinics. That is the highest % of funds in their organization. If you give to these organizations I believe you are supporting murders.

I'm sure it happens, though I don't see much of the difference between this and Christians evangelizing using bait instead of nets.

The organization is an umbrella, just like McDonald's. Some of their offices are probably run according to their rules, and others aren't.


Look, I'm not trying to start an abortion debate, nor do I think it's right, nor do I think it should be legal. The US has said that it isn't murder, and so abortion continues.

All I'm saying is that judging someone by their is a stupid way to figure out whether he or she is a Christian. The Corinthians are called saints in their epistles, but their actions were anything but saintly! It is our doctrine as Christians that make us Christian, not the way we live our lives or where we work.

[LexingtonPethead]

It is our doctrine as Christians that make us Christian, not the way we live our lives or where we work.

Doctrine doesn't save anybody. It's our faith by grace that saves us. The way we live our lives and the choices we make are the evidence of Christ living in us.

[winterlens]

It is our doctrine as Christians that make us Christian, not the way we live our lives or where we work.

Doctrine doesn't save anybody. It's our faith by grace that saves us. The way we live our lives and the choices we make are the evidence of Christ living in us.

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" 1 Tim 4:16.

The only way we know Christ is through doctrine. Nature reveals God as a judge (Romans 1); the Word--doctrine--reveals him as the Savior. Our relationship with him is based in the revelation we have in the Scripture, not in our daily walk.

If you are to judge someone's relationship to God, judge his doctrine, not his life, for you do not know the extent of it. My pastor likes to tell a story about a church he visited where someone commented that one man certainly couldn't be a Christian because of his language. The pastor of this church replied, "You should've heard him before he became a Christian."

We absolutely are defined by our doctrine. This is why we read in Matthew that we are justified by what we say (Matt 12:37).

[Shell]

I know what you're saying too Winterlens, God works from the inside out, He's more interested in the heart, and we all fall. But I think it's pretty safe to say someone who is out drinking, doing drugs and sleeping around isn't a Christian. Or if they're claiming to be a Christian, they're not practicing what they claim to believe. That sort of sinful lifestyle does say something about you.

[winterlens]

I know what you're saying too Winterlens, God works from the inside out, He's more interested in the heart, and we all fall. But I think it's pretty safe to say someone who is out drinking, doing drugs and sleeping around isn't a Christian. Or if they're claiming to be a Christian, they're not practicing what they claim to believe. That sort of sinful lifestyle does say something about you.

Of course it does. Jesus says, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

We may safely conclude that someone who does not keep his commandments does not love him (~Q -> ~P, in logic terms). But we cannot conclude that if someone is keeping his commandments that he actually loves him (that would be Q -> P). Our lifestyles certainly do reflect the love we have for our Savior, but they do not disqualify us from being a Christian.

As far as I can tell, people can very easily keep Christ's commandments and work at Planned Parenthood for the love of those who come in need of help.

[Shell]

True, you can't really know something for sure just by outward appearances. There are people who park their rears in church every Sunday who won't be going to Heaven. There are people who wouldn't dream of saying a bad word who aren't living for Jesus. Some of the worst people for going out and getting drunk and stupid things like that were the kids in the youth group at the church I grew up in. One gal had a couple of kids and I don't know that she ever got around to marrying their father. A couple of other gals, although they did marry their kids' fathers, were pregnant at their weddings. One guy has been married three times, and I don't know that he's still married. Let me tell you, if I didn't understand that people are people and sin goes on in the church too, I'd be very disillusioned now. I did go through a time where I thought the whole church scene stunk.

Of course, the church I grew up in was rather screwed up, more so than most. One of the best things I ever did was to finally get fed up enough to leave that particular church. In fairness, I should probably say I have no idea how any of those people are doing now; this was a long time ago. They may have wised up and gotten back on the straight and narrow. I didn't stick around to find out though.

[LexingtonPethead]

We can trade Bible verses on this all night long. I think we all agree we are saved through our faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin. It is by God's grace we are saved.

But as I've pointed out, it is not the theological understanding of this that saves us. It is the sincere act of coming to Christ, believing in Him and trusting God that saves us. The theology, or doctrine, in and of itself does not save us. I believe the passage in Timothy Winterlens quoted confirms this with the words "continue in them" (the theology). In other words, living them out. That's different than being saved by doctrine as was suggested earlier.

That passage also says we can save ourselves and "them that hear thee". Does that mean we have the power to "save" someone just because we heed unto the doctrine"? Of course not. But the witness we bear by Godly living can - and does - encourage people to come to Christ.

The Bible says we will know God's children by the fuit they bear. Christ living in us and being indwelled by His Spirit causes us to be more Christ-like. That's not to say we don't stumble, of course we all do, but it's the overall living out our faith that separates us from what the world looks like. This is evidenced by the decisions and choices we make. Shell hit it right when she said a person living a sinful lifestyle really is not a Christian.

And I agree with Winterlens's assertion that just because someone is keeping God's commandments it doesn't mean they love God. I know I didn't suggest that they do, nor do I think anyone else did.