Health care, socialism, whatever

[CatNamedManny]

Lots of generalizations, misinformation and untruth. So here's a random list of comments in response:

1. The public comments of the Founders were often spoken because they knew what would get them votes. Actions and private correspondence speak louder. For example, Thomas Jefferson's creation of a Bible that excised all references to the divinity of Christ. Jefferson is also known as an incredibly deceitful person who would act entirely the opposite in private of what he would say in public. Many of the Founders were like this; they knew what the people wanted to hear, but they were very elitist and did what they thought was best for the people, regardless of what the people themselves thought they wanted. For example, Adams, Jefferson and Madison were quoted as saying nice things about Christianity or their own Christian faith (the others cited weren't truly founders in the sense of setting up our government, or they were supporting characters, and I think everyone would agree that there were, then as now, Christians in all levels of government. I'm interested in the great minds that crafted the philosophies of the early years of the republic).

"Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!' -- John Adams

"The ravings of a maniac." -- Thomas Jefferson, referring to the Gospel of John.

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." --James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --James Madison

"As to Jesus of Nazareth ... I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." -- Ben Franklin, one month before his death.

The question you have to ask is: Would a true believer ever have been able to even untruthfully make these statements? In which case, which of the contradictory statements is likely closer to the man's true belief?

2. All these generalizations about progressivism are silly. Why should I believe the "basic conservative premise" that corporations are good (this may not be true, but it's at least as accurate as the opposite argument about liberalism) any more than the "basic liberal premise" that government is good? We need a balance between the two; I believe the balance is too far to the right.

3. I have a one-word answer for the idea that there's all this opposition to liberal beliefs: the economy. The incumbent always suffers during a bad economy, and in case you missed it, liberalism was the big winner the last two elections. When the economy recovers, we'll find that everyone loves progressivism again. After all, is anyone surprised that Barack Obama, whose No. 1 campaign promise was to reform health care, actually reformed health care? If they are, perhaps there is something to that idea that the people are too dumb to know better. Because last I checked he won an election with a wider margin of support than any president since George H.W. Bush, and he has actually done much of what he promised to do.

Also, you know who has worse approval ratings than Barack Obama and his allies in Congress? His conservative opponents in Congress. Yet the American people plan to vote for them and their allies anyway. You know what a vast majority of Americans support? All the principal components of the health care reform and banking reform bills when they're described separately instead of lumped together as "health care reform." Which might provide some evidence for the notion that perhaps the people just aren't very well informed. Given which cable news station is No. 1 in the ratings, I can't say I'm surprised.

4. The Declaration of Independence is not a governing document, and it was written by a man who opposed the Constitution and believed the United States should be thrown into occasional periods of revolution, such was his extreme view of limited government (some might call it, ahem, "anarchy.") Those who claim our rights come from God need to show biblical support for this notion. Otherwise it came from a man who didn't even believe that JESUS came from God.

5. Lincoln entered the Civil War to protect the union, period. He supported continuing slavery until he realized abolishing it was a way to galvanize northern support when it began to slip in the early years of the war. Many of the founders did indeed hate slavery, but they were unable to do anything about it because the southern states would have torn the union apart had there been an effort to abolish it. Instead, they had to take incremental steps, such as prohibiting the slave trade after a certain time, prohibiting slave trading in Washington, DC, etc. The South, of course, has been refighting the Civil War ever since, which led them to impose segregation, oppose integration, oppose women's suffrage, oppose the Civil Rights Act and work clauses into the initial Medicare and Medicaid bills that excluded black people.

6. History is history. The initial revision of history occurred during the Great Awakening of the early-mid 1800s, when evangelical preachers decided it would better suit their message if the Founding Fathers were made a little more Christian than they actually were. As historians have unraveled the lies and discovered the true nature of the founders, Christians and conservatives have accused them of exactly what
Christians did to the founders in the first place. It's not some big liberal plot; it's rigorous, proven research.

7. Putting "God" in government is never a good idea. When has that ever worked out? It leads to oppression of people who don't agree with the view of God held by the people in government. For people with such distrust of government, we sure seem confident that empowering it to take away the rights of minorities (such as unbelievers) would turn out OK. Prohibiting teachers from leading a class in prayer (which is not a prohibition against students choosing to pray of their own accord over their lunch, or what have you) protects Christians. We are not guaranteed to always be in the majority in the United States. And I think we would want the ability to teach our children our faith without our public schools forcing them to pray to Mecca or do the rosary.

8. "In God we trust" and "one nation under God" were made official in the 1950s, not by the founders. Their chosen motto was much more secular: "E pluribus unum," out of many one. The initial Pledge of Allegiance had no reference to God. So let's drop this silly attachment to phrases that essentially mean nothing for our faith and are historically inaccurate, to boot.

9. Fun charts on tax revenues by a partisan analysis that openly dismisses the nonpartisan analysis that showed the opposite and also failed completely to account for the fact that tax revenues increase as the economy improves, even in the face of tax cuts. Not surprisingly, the study ignores this key piece of context -- and the fact that essentially every conservative economist, including those who worked for the previous administration, agrees that tax cuts do not pay for themselves. Ever.

[bakersfieldpethead]

The public comments of the Founders were often spoken because they knew what would get them votes. Actions and private correspondence speak louder.

Thank the Lord that the Quotes that I gave were mainly from private correspondence. Abraham Lincoln kept a daily devotional journal in which he wrote his thoughts and praise down according to the scriptures he read from the Bible, Daily!!!

“The ravings of a maniac”

This was actually in referring to Revelations, thus being why he wrote his own Bible. I won’t argue about Thomas Jefferson. Although he had his moments, he was more of a man who thought scientifically than religiously. However he did understand that we were created and our creator, who ever it might be gave us our rights.

"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
- Benjamin Franklin

Important to put it in context.

“Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!" But in this exclamatic I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean Hell.” – John Adams

Hmmm doesn’t seem like he was speaking against Christianity

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project." --James Madison

James Madison had written a bill that went on to be the foundation of Separation of Church and State, because of the idea that Christianity would flourish if it were free and not tied to the Government. During this time there was a move by some to establish a Tax to fund the ministries of Christianity but it would have left out the Quakers and other forms of religion. He wasn’t speaking against Christianity; he was speaking against of the corruption that would follow if we made any religion the religion of the nation. “Religious bondage” refers to Religious Government rule. Christianity in its original and most pure form isn’t an institution of bondage it is an institution of freedom. Our founding fathers knew that if we made the mistakes that other governments in the past did that Christianity would inhabit yet another stain from those that wished to use it for their own corruption.

Experience witnessed that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest luster; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with civil policy. – James Madison

He was on the floor of the house arguing why there shouldn’t be a tax to pay for the teaching of Christianity, which I agree with. He was not speaking against Christianity but against what incorporation did to corrupt Christianity possibly pointing all the way back to the reign of Constantine. Therefore says “Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest luster, those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with civil policy” As to say look to the examples that the Bible left to us and not what the World did to corrupt it by forcing people. Christ died to give us a choice, not to push himself upon us.

Being that men’s heart is naturally evil, I agree that Christianity must not be the “official” religion of this nation, nor should any religion have so importance that any people would be condemned and persecuted. I have not said that we must push others out or force people to accept Christ or else. When we say “Our nation was founded upon Christian Principles” is not in any way indorsing that this nation should be officially a one religion Nation, but that the values that were given to us by God and Jesus Christ in both the new and old testament were deemed valid enough to use for the foundation of this nation.

However at the same time, before you and I were even born. The majority of people had in some way associated themselves with Christianity and would no doubt tell you that this is a Christian nation, and according to the constitution, the will of the people is the direction of this nation, not the government.

I was also trying to say our leaders must turn to God if we are to get out of the mess we’re in and that our rights are just as viable and valuable as those who don’t believe. You who claim to be Christians and knowing in whom our answer is in, yet argue and still disagree saying it would be a bad Idea for our leaders to turn to that answer, doesn’t add up. Your responses about this puzzles me, it sound as if you have your own question of rather the Bible is viable and truthful. But those of us who are sure and affirmed in our faith with God and casting out all doubt, knowing where our freedom comes from and thus it is easy for us to say, turn to God. But I have been criticized for saying such a comment, from fellow members. We must pray for our leaders as well as one for another and as a Christian we are to pray for the President and all leaders in all parties whether we agree with them or not. I never said I believe nor do I believe that it is imperative you agree with me or else, so do not put that quotation on me. I will do my best to back everything I say up with fact, if I’m wrong, I’ll admit it. Like wise I hope the same from you.

Weather or not the republicans have a lower approval ratings than that of the president, the president is still the president and while he ran on the topic of health care it was still not expected to be of the drastic change that he took, and for a man who said there would be complete transparency in his administration, then I wonder who shut the door on the cameras when He and only democrats begin to talk about it, it wasn’t until there was almost a fight on there hands that he finally included the republicans and cameras in the debate. That’s not republican heresy, I watched it happen. No sir The Democrats have not done anything in a good way with there time in power but instead bullied there way around, and although Republicans may be guilty of the same thing, to do so just because the other did, is both Childish and undeserving to be in office of The United States. That goes for all parties!

Just because a government leader does what they say they are going to do does not mean that’s a good thing when it puts bondage upon the nation’s citizens regardless of the party they are affiliated with. Healthcare, Religion or anything, a man is entitled to make his living and make as much or as little money as he wants to, it’s not within our rights for another man to take away his earnings because he’s wrong or right for being wealthy, nor is it our right for another man to judge someone else for being poor. It’s funny how members of both parties will pull scripture out to support their own agenda. But I will say this while we may need to be like good Samaritans for those who are less fortunate, Christ requires us to do it of our own free will and not under bondage or someone forcing us to do it. So then the great commandment goes “Love one another, even as I have loved you” the desire to want to must be present, not the mind set that I have to or else, because God wants to love us, not has to love us.

It’s amazing that another nations government healthcare plan, a nation to where our own government used as a example completely collapsed after our Government forced it up on us; And they did, it wasn’t voted on by the citizens, had it been brought before the people to vote on it would not have passed. We bombarded Dianne Feinstein’s office with calls that we were against this health care bill and her response was more or less, “I’m voting for it anyways, because I know what’s best.” And no her response had nothing to do with other Citizens, her mind was made up that this was what she wanted and she made it clear.

You can ridicule me and tell me I’m delusional all you want, but I’m living in the facts everyday, so much that they can’t be denied. I know what I see before me regarding this nation and its government. I don't need Fox News to tell me what I already see.

which is not a prohibition against students choosing to pray of their own accord over their lunch, or what have you.

Yet our Children are being told more and more NOT to do it, and more kids are told not to bring their Bibles…hmmm funny how their actions are disproving your statement.

[CatNamedManny]

I don't need Fox News to tell me what I already see.

I think this sentence tells me everything I need to know.

And, for the record, health care reform as passed was less significant a change than the reforms promised by Obama in the campaign.

Everything else, I'm going simply going to go the agree-to-disagree route. We could go on for years probably, and I do enjoy the debate, but at some point it becomes onerous -- to both our ability to read and write a response to everything that's been written, and our ability to be friendly brothers in Christ.

I hope you enjoyed the debate as much as I did. Peace.

[bakersfieldpethead]

I agree. If the goal is that we make it to heaven, then all of this really won't matter to us when we are there.

I Love all of my brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of political views.