BTTR Must Be Selling Well

[Preacherman777]

I don't care that it was brought up (illegal downloading) but someone had said that was what the thread was about while complaining that someone else was off topic, so I was just pointing out that, in fact, illegal downloading wasn't the original topic either.

[SCJ-7]

" Hello again, we're back together
Hello again, we're here forever " ...

[sickasadog]

Many would point out that Jesus wants the world to do away with the old ways. His message is overwhelmingly of peace. People pick and choose what they want to believe, but it's my conviction that Jesus meant what he said in the Sermon on the Mount. I might be wrong, but it's what I've chosen--the Way that Jesus prescribes.

Hmmm, I don't remember the Sermon on the Mount having anything to do with protecting your Country, as a matter of fact what about God’s children (Israel) fighting battles to take the land God gave them? Are you saying that God the son contradicts God the father?

And what does all this have to do with how Back to the Rock is selling?

For me, it has very much to do with protecting your country, but I don't think I have the persuasive gifts to convince someone else. My grandfather was sent to the Soviet gulag 3X for these beliefs, so I don't expect that having debates on this would be useful here either, except to drive a wedge between Christians.

I may just be foolish.

[bakersfieldpethead]

Again, what does this have to do with how Back to the Rock is selling?

[sickasadog]

Again, what does this have to do with how Back to the Rock is selling?

Nothing. You asked.

[bakersfieldpethead]

I've never felt that God is against us protecting our Country. So let’s just break this down a bit.

What would happen if the United States of America did away with their military (keep in mind no other country has to this, apparently it’s just the US that everyone wants to do this).

1. Millions of more jobless because we no longer have our multiple chapters of the military
2. Hurricanes and Earthquakes come, but now we no longer have the man power to employ rescue missions from the military
3. If we do away with military, we might as well do a way with the law enforcement because they have to carry weapons to fight off criminals.
4. So now nations from all over who don’t follow our good faith can come in at any moment and rape our women and kill us and our children and take everything we built over more than 200 years.
5. An entire nation and race can be wiped out but it’s all good because we chose not to fight.
6. Other nations who have sought our help, no longer has a nation to stand by them when they are taken over by a dictator or have some sort of emergency and need our MILITARY to help out.
7. All of our Veterans get a pat on the back and told “You’re service was all for nothing, because our freedom doesn’t matter anymore.”

It’s a little hard to shake someone’s hand when they have a gun in it pointing at you. We have to defend our country against those who can care less about how we believe.

I agree that we must love everyone; I agree that the Lord would have us turn the other cheek. However I don’t agree that God wouldn’t want us to defend our nation or stand with someone in fighting to defend their country.

[brent]

Different countries have different rules. I think the US rules are the strictest. In the Netherlands I am allowed to have a copy of any recording for my own purposes. I am not acting illegal if I download it somewhere on the internet. But it is not allowed to offer any recording to which you don't own the right for download. So the rules are a bit weird, but if I have tons of movies and music on my computer, I'm acting perfectly within the law.

But FYI, because I love Petra I purchased the download and I will be purchasing the CD as well.

Your countries immoral laws don't put you in a good position with the artists or God. Next time you go to a show, go shake the artists hands and tell them that you support them by downloading their hard work for free and see where that gets ya'.

It's immoral and biblically wrong to steal what is not yours to take.

It is legal in the USA for females to kill their babies. That doesn't make it right. Christians are not limited to the moral compass of the law. That comes from the bible.

I like the way you're assuming that just because I say that I'm allowed to download anything, I'm actually doing that... Just for your information: I still haven't got PDC's Mechanism, because I'm waiting for the CD release and I don't want to pay double for a download and a CD. But did I download it illegally somewhere else?? NO, I didn't. If ever I do download music, it's generally music that I'm not able to find anymore, or music that I own on LP. I'd rather have someone else do the ripping for me, cause I don't have the right equipment.

And anyway, if we would really adopt biblical ideas, then art would be free for everyone to enjoy. The whole notion of possessing things is so non-biblical.

Better on their shores than on ours!

Amen! Just like Jesus taught us!
Don't kill unborn babies, but let's go to war and rejoice as the bombs fall on someone else (their shores, not ours!)

And the American claim to moral / spiritual superiority is exposed as the sham that it is.

No sham or shame here. We protected our country with a great offense; In war its never good to be on the defense; WAR IS A NECESSARY EVIL!!

Good ol' Aristotle used to say: 'this point of view is so ridiculous that it isn't even worth trying to argue against it.' I'm almost inclined to adopt his point of view, but then again, Jesus is (and has) the answer. He said stuff like turn the other cheek and love your enemy and instead of attacking your enemy, repay his actions with love. By doing this you will put 'burning coals' on his head and you will make him feel ashamed of whatever he is doing (says Paul somewhere). Undoubtedly you're able to find these verses in your own Bible, so I won't bother to find where exactly this is said.

If the product you are getting off the internet originated from the U.S or from a country where it is illegal then yes you actually are breaking the law. Plus I'm not even getting into the moral part of the equation.

Nope, I'm not. The U.S. doesn't dictate the laws in the Netherlands. Even if it's forbidden in the U.S. to own a copy, it's perfectly legal in the Netherlands. We have our own laws and are not under American jurisdiction. But I know this is probably not going to appease you, since you probably feel and believe that America has the right to rule the world. America is not my moral compass and as shown above the Biblical compass doesn't always point in the same direction as your interpretation of it.

Enough oil on the fire...

IIRC, you stated that you downloaded and that your country allows it. I put two and two together. Sorry.

What I find hard to swallow is the comment about "the biblical model" = free music. I don't find work being without compensation anywhere in scripture. In fact, I can come up with hundreds about working and compensation.

As far as the copyright laws in your country, US artists still have a say whether they want to be in that marketplace.

Now, music in church, a gift to God....I am with ya. That should not be paid for. But we are talking about a product (CCM) sold for money.

[bakersfieldpethead]

Now, music in church, a gift to God....I am with ya. That should not be paid for. But we are talking about a product (CCM) sold for money.

I think any copywrite payments should be made when they purchase material, such as Songbooks, Songsheets, it's all paid during the purchase. Churches having to make payments every quarter for using a song is just not the right thing to do. After all Churches have been singng out of songbooks for years, they were never told to make payments before.

[rexreed]

I do not know the actual copyright laws of The Netherlands but it was mentioned earlier that if you own a legal copy of a song then you also have the right to copies of that song. Fair enough, plenty of folks in the US kind of believe this too when they proceed to steal the song from a download site rather than make a copy using their own, purchased master.. It may also be legal to download the copy of that song from someone who had the cd when you only owned a cassette. OK I can see where that is going. Now, BTTR is brand new so there is no way anyone already had the cd or the record or the cassette or the reel to reel or the 8 track or the dcc because is has never been released on those formats. How can one say they are entitled to a copy of something when they do not own an original? Keep in mind that BTTR is ALL NEW recordings of these particular songs.

[bakersfieldpethead]

How can one say they are entitled to a copy of something when they do not own an original? Keep in mind that BTTR is ALL NEW recordings of these particular songs.

I agree with you. However let me put it this way.

MP3 is a musical format, just as Cassettes, LPs, CDs, 8-Tracks, printed music etc…

If you purchased a Cassette of “On Fire” in 1988, and you decided to get the CD years later, you couldn’t walk into the store and just take it off the shelf and walk out telling them, it’s ok I already I own the Cassette. No you would be ripping off the store, and you would have your butt landed in jail.

So why all of the sudden do people feel they are entitled to freely download an album just because they already own the album in a previous format? There is no difference between buying a format. I have some Petra albums both on CD and Cassette, I had to buy them both. Fork over the money, or do without people.

[rexreed]

From the 5 minutes of research it seems that although The Netherlands is much more accepting of downloading music than the US there are still some rules. You may download pretty much anything you want, but you aren't allowed to burn it to a cd or resell it if you don't own what amounts to a copyright. The term copyright doesn't actually mean anything there but you get the idea. Also there are certain things that you are not allowed to upload if you are not the author or own the rights, but downloading those same items is fine. Gotta love international laws! Hopefully BBTR sells alright even with the lax copyright laws of The Netherlands and thieves who live in the US.

[p-freak]

If you purchased a Cassette of “On Fire” in 1988, and you decided to get the CD years later, you couldn’t walk into the store and just take it off the shelf and walk out telling them, it’s ok I already I own the Cassette. No you would be ripping off the store, and you would have your butt landed in jail.

So why all of the sudden do people feel they are entitled to freely download an album just because they already own the album in a previous format? There is no difference between buying a format. I have some Petra albums both on CD and Cassette, I had to buy them both. Fork over the money, or do without people.

That would be funny if someone would walk into a store and use that argument to get a CD for free!!

But as rex just has confirmed, in The Netherlands (and I'm sure we're not the only country with these kinds of laws) I can keep a copy of any recording for my own use. So if I own a Petra album on LP or cassette, I can legally download that album and store it in any format I like for personal use. But that said, I own 7 copies of s/t in different formats, 6 copies of CAJU, 8 copies of WWT, 8 copies of NSD, 9 copies of MPTY, 11 copies of NOTW, 11 copies of BTS, 8 copies of CITAS and also lots of copies of the later releases. I've purchased all of these (although most of them second hand).

[BForm]

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY!!!!

But God, who are YOU to tell me what to do. I live in the Netherlands. It's legal here!

[p-freak]

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY!!!!

But God, who are YOU to tell me what to do. I live in the Netherlands. It's legal here!

Ah yes, that's true. I forgot that copyright laws, made up by silly humans who need to protect each other from ripping each other off, were actually instituted by God and are part of the Ten Commandments. You will need to rewrite your Bible here to squeeze US copyright laws into it. As I said earlier, US law is not a moral compass.

Art should be free for anyone to enjoy. This does not mean that this would equal a license to download anything. Copyright originally was invented to help artists make a living. But nowadays it's more about filling the pockets of the extremely rich corporate individuals than it's about protecting poor creative people. It's gone completely renegade.

I've tried to take a reasonable position here by explaining the way copyrights work here and all I get are silly comments like the one I just quoted that totally miss the point. If you would have said something like: maybe Dutch copyright laws aren't the best in the world, then I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But still, in the Netherlands I have to comply to Dutch laws and in the USA you have to comply to American laws. And your assumption that I would ignore any Biblical commandment, just because in my country copyright laws (that are not a Biblical commandment) are different than in your country, is just totally silly.

Please give a more intelligent reply.

[bakersfieldpethead]

THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY!!!!

But God, who are YOU to tell me what to do. I live in the Netherlands. It's legal here!

Ah yes, that's true. I forgot that copyright laws, made up by silly humans who need to protect each other from ripping each other off, were actually instituted by God and are part of the Ten Commandments. You will need to rewrite your Bible here to squeeze US copyright laws into it. As I said earlier, US law is not a moral compass.

Art should be free for anyone to enjoy. This does not mean that this would equal a license to download anything. Copyright originally was invented to help artists make a living. But nowadays it's more about filling the pockets of the extremely rich corporate individuals than it's about protecting poor creative people. It's gone completely renegade.

I've tried to take a reasonable position here by explaining the way copyrights work here and all I get are silly comments like the one I just quoted that totally miss the point. If you would have said something like: maybe Dutch copyright laws aren't the best in the world, then I would wholeheartedly agree with you. But still, in the Netherlands I have to comply to Dutch laws and in the USA you have to comply to American laws. And your assumption that I would ignore any Biblical commandment, just because in my country copyright laws (that are not a Biblical commandment) are different than in your country, is just totally silly.

Please give a more intelligent reply.

8th Commandment. Thou Shalt Not Steal

That is not a US only law, that is the law of God. Stealing is stealing no matter how you look at it. If you are taking away from someone's living against their will, you are in fact stealing from them. Regardless if your country suports it or not, stealing is stealing in God's eyes.

Here is the thing. It's not your job to tell the artist that their music should be free, it's not your job to make it free or get it free. Sin is sin and regardless of what you feel should be free or not, to take something againsts the will of someone else just because you think it should be the way you want it is wrong and is against the Bible. Thou Shalt Not Steal is the same in every country, by GOD's Law not man's law.

"Thou Shalt Not Steal" was in the World long before there ever was a United States of America and long before there was ever a Me and You. Man says there are grey areas to the Law because they look for reasons to get around the Laws, but God isn't going to judge by opinions.

If you look at the 10 Commandments, you see an index of laws. Everything is covered under the law, the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun. So that little copywright law you said we should re-write in the Bible, it was there before you were even born, it's called "Thou Shalt Not Steal"