Mystery on Bob's view lyrics on He Came He Saw solved.

[PetFCtr]

Chuck is correct about Jesus not going anywhere he was dead..and His spirit was with the father..Jesus did not DESCEND into hell that part of the creed is rubbish and a tainting of the Word of God...

So why did Bob use it...Its not scripturally accurate...

[Shell]

You're rather fixated on that, aren't you Rich? Why not just be glad Jesus rose? The only one who could really know what he was thinking when he wrote it is the one who wrote it, and he's probably wise enough not to talk about it here.

The definition of parable in the dictionary is a story to illustrate a moral truth. Jesus used parables to teach. The parable about Lazurus was to warn the people-and us-what would happen if they didn't obey God, and to talk about heaven and hell. The Jews were descendants of Abraham, so they could relate to being in Abraham's bosom.

[charl]

I would argue that the rich man and lazarus was more about the last thing Jesus said in the exchange: If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.
Not only was it a prophesy, but also was saying that the rich man (and by implication the teachers who opposed Jesus) was to blame for his position as he had the scriptures and they were enough. Also that some will refuse to believe regardless of what evidence they are given.

What is the moral of that anyway?

[PetFCtr]

You're rather fixated on that, aren't you Rich? Why not just be glad Jesus rose? The only one who could really know what he was thinking when he wrote it is the one who wrote it, and he's probably wise enough not to talk about it here.

Well yeah shell I'm insistant when it comes to Gods Word. I think it would be cool for Bob to comment on it. I think it would be wise actually

The definition of parable in the dictionary is a story to illustrate a moral truth. Jesus used parables to teach. The parable about Lazurus was to warn the people-and us-what would happen if they didn't obey God, and to talk about heaven and hell. The Jews were descendants of Abraham, so they could relate to being in Abraham's bosom.

Yeah I understand that..All I'm saying is that there is no indication by the author or from Jesus that it was a parable.

In Christ

Rich

[Pethead1]

Ephesians 4:9-10

9 Now that He ascended,what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the Earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens that he might fill all things.

[Enosh]

I agree that it wasn't a parable. Nothing ever states that it is such. IT is not prefaced with "Jesus told a parable, or spoke to them in parables. Jesus just starts relaying the story.

Rich,

based on Eph. 4:9-10, it is a widely excepted view of what happened after Christ's death. I would suggest if you really want an answer from Bob, that you email him yourself. When it comes down to it, it's all based on our own interpretation of what these scriptures mean. It's a pretty well excepted and valid view about those three days. It's not like Bob just made it up.

[BForm]

I've been watching this topic and have been trying to find a link to a small booklet I have on this. I could not find it but I did find this from 10th Presbyterian in Philiadelphia, a very well known church with some great preachers in their history:

http://www.tenth.org/qbox/qb_000716.htm

[BForm]

And another, considerably more technical, which you should expect from Calvin:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/Christ_in_hell/

[Edward]

It has to be a parable, because:

1. Jesus never said that any parable was a parable, He always started with something like, "There was a man..."

2. Judgement has not occured yet for the dead OT unbelievers. Read Revelation folks. There is no one nurning in hell yet. There are demons held in Hades, which is NOT Hell according to the Greek.

3. The earliest translations of the bible have it noted as a parable. While this doesn't make it so, the teaching has been understood as such since the 1500's.

[js3971]

One of the things I think we've all, including and especially me, in this discuassion and others is the fact the the Christian life is more about relationship than it is theology. I've known some fairly great theologians, but they were pretty much spiritually dead. Christ wants us to know him, and more importantly he wants to know us. That's pretty simple theology, and maybe that makes some of you angry. It's all about our relationship with Him, then with others, and that all boils down to love. It doesn't boil down to whether or not we had the right or wrong theological understanding or stance on a particular issue.

Some have stated that they don't like today's praise music because it isn't theologically deep. Read some of David's praises he wrote in psalms. Some of those arguable aren't thologically deep. He's just expressing his love for God, who God is to him, and his thanks for what God has done for him. I'm not saying that a song should be theogical or not, I just think we're missing the whole point here.

[AlwaysJohnLawryFan]

I believe that Jesus didn't go to hell. I believe he went to Abraham bossom. But, in my opinion , hey Jesus is in Heaven and that what's really counts rather he went to hell or not. We believe in the same Jesus right?

[BForm]

JS, Although I understand the concerns the modern church has with theology, I think we've gone way too far to the other side on this. There is a reason why so many "evangelicals" (or as I like to call them: Evangellyfish Christians) do not have a biblical world view, do not believe in moral absolutes, yet consider themselves "born again". I believe this is the logical end to the de-emphasizing of a systematic means of understanding scripture (theology), in favor of an emphasis on the simplist understanding of a relationship with Christ.

Yes, we all want to worship Christ. Yet, without theology, this Jesus becomes a God of our own choosing, and is not grounded in the meat of scripture. We end up pigeonholing Him according to a few scriptures taken out of context that are to our liking and appeal to our Western drive for comfort and prosperity.

Concerning praise music, my issue is not with praise songs per se, but with the exclusive use of the most basic of themes in them. Yes, there are some very simple Psalms. I don't have my bible in front of me but Psalm 117 and 131 come to mind, but my memory may have failed me. But look at the rest of them. Look at Psalm 119.

There are very few Psalms that match the 7-11 model so prevalent today. You know, the same 7 words sung 11 times. But most have considerably more depth that what we are singing in church today. I love what RC Sproul said once, "If you can substitute the name July for Jesus and the song still makes sense, it doesn't do much to lift up and magnify the Glory of God.

[BeReady]

I respectfully disagree with those who believe the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16) is just a parable. Although I realize some elements of the parable structure are in this story, Jesus usage of a proper name stands out. The fact that Jesus identifies the main character by name�Lazarus, tells me that this is more than just a parable.


I also understand some of the confusion surrounding the Ephesians 4:7-9 passage mentioning Jesus ascending and descending. Historically this has been understood as Jesus� descent into the realm of the dead (Hades) as reflected in the Apostles Creed. But this issue has always been debated. Even when I was in seminary, I remember my professors disagreeing about this text. Some took the historical position, while others believed this text was simply a reference to Jesus� incarnation cf. Philippians 2:7.

I think we also need to realize that Jesus did not go to �heaven� when he died. I think there are two texts which make this clear�John 20:17 where Jesus says I have not ascended to my Father; and Luke 23:43 where Jesus tells the thief on the cross that he will be with Him in �paradise.� Paradise and heaven were not the same place. The Greek language has different words for heaven and paradise. Heaven was the abode of God. Paradise was the abode of the righteous dead AKA Abraham�s Bosom.

Also, we could debate the semantics of this statement, but if the righteous dead did not have salvation, they at least had the promise of salvation based upon their faith and hope in God�s future promise of a redeemer cf. Hebrews 11.

Finally (for now), I think theology is important (if its not, are you ready to worship with a Mormon or Jehovah�s Witness?) and this debate can be healthy for Christians if it drives us deeper into the Scripture and we don�t take disagreement to personally.

[Enosh]

Great post Be Ready!

I think this has been a very good discussion. I pray that no one has been offended by any comment I have made, as I have not been by anyone else's. This does stir up good thought. We should always be open to good teaching. It doesn't mean that must agree but if there is any good word there we should receive it with gladness.

The funny thing is that Petheads are always ready for a good bible thumper. I really only meant this post as a reply based on other lyrics. We are all opinionated.

[PetFCtr]

Calvin

Calvin is a fruit cake heretic