Mystery on Bob's view lyrics on He Came He Saw solved.

[winterlens]

Bill, thanks for responding before I did. I think I might have been less generous with Praise and Worship music, and probably the church.

Jesus says we must worship in spirit and truth. The sense of the word "must" here is the same as "You must be born again" to enter heaven; there isn't any way around it. If the truth isn't there, it isn't worship. When we start to remove doctrine from our worship, we make it "un-worship."

[BForm]

Calvin is a fruit cake heretic

Thank you. Then I must be a fruitcake heretic too! And if what you're refering to is the foundation of Reformed Theology (some people call them the five points), then the following are all fruitcake heretics too:

Luther, Spurgeon, Whitfield, Mueller, Carey, Judson, Knox, Zwingli, Edwards, and nearly everyone involved in the first 200 years of the Reformation. And then throw in today's Sproul, Piper, MacArthur, Lutzer, Moeller, Joni Earickson Tada, Kennedy, etc.

By the way, thanks so much for bringing flaming rhetoric into an otherwise civil discussion. But I understand. For nearly 20 years I fought this theology. But everytime I came across so many of the difficult passages like Roman's 9, John Chapter 6, etc., I could never find peace with the commentaries that tried to explain it away. Finally, one day God gave me peace and I knew it was true. I was a believer because God chose to take out my heart of stone, give me a heart of flesh (Ezekiel), GRANT me the gift of repentance (II Timothy), and give me the gift of faith. Twas grace, tis grace and twill be nothing but God's grace. Otherwise, I could brag that I'm more sensitive, soft hearted or spiritually enlightened than my unbelieving neighbor because of something good in myself. No way!

[PetFCtr]

I must be a fruitcake heretic too!.

You said it not me I actually couldn't have said it better myself

I follow Jesus not Calvin, Calvin=

[Jonathan]

Calvin is a fruit cake heretic

Are you going to back that up?

Around here, you probably step on a lot of toes with that.

[BeReady]

Calvin

Calvin is a fruit cake heretic

Ironically, Calvin's teaching was affirmed by the reformed church as orthodox at the Synod of Dort in 1619. And I do think we should be mindful of the teachings of the pseudepigraphical book of Thumper, Chapter 1, vs. 1. "If you can't say something nice.....don't say nothing at all."

[charl]

And another, considerably more technical, which you should expect from Calvin:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/Christ_in_hell/

Bform I tried that one too the last time, same link and all...didn't work for me either.


and BTW I prefer to be called an Evil calvinist please-weird capitalization intended (and yeah it should be Depraved, but it's odd how many people don't get that)

[Shell]

I decided I was a heathen a long time ago...

No, actually it was the church I grew up in that decided that. Needless to say I don't go to that particular church any more.

[PetFCtr]

Calvin is a fruit cake heretic

Are you going to back that up?

Around here, you probably step on a lot of toes with that.

I don't want to step on toes, so could you please move them outa my way please

I really do not want to debate calvin. Yes he believed that Jesus was the Son of God. There are other things that i find objectionable. As far as him being a fruit cake heretic, I will back off from that statement.

I will now put my concertration back on reading the Bible and following Jesus.

In Christ

Rich

[winterlens]

I really do not want to debate calvin. Yes he believed that Jesus was the Son of God.

Rich, I don't recall if you ever provided some insight into the passages from the Psalms I mentioned the last time this discussion came up. I don't recall that you provided your opinion on what the substitutionary death of Christ actually means.


If you agree that his death is substitutionary, then he in fact was punished the way we would have been punished. If his death was not substitutionary (and it is unequivocally clear from Scripture that it was), then we are responsible for satisfying God's justice--and we cannot.

In the end, you're quibbling about geography; but a short distance from your thesis is that Jesus' punishment wasn't commensurate with God's justice.

[Petra24]

Back to the "parable".....

"All these things Jesus speaks in parables to the throngs, and apart from a parable He spoke nothing to them..." (Mat. 13:34).

An indepth study of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man would prove that this is in fact a parable.

Facts from the story.....

Lazarus was poor
Rich man was rich
Lazarus begged for crumbs
Rich man had plenty of food
Rich man dressed in nice clothing
Lazarus died
Rich man died
In life Rich man received good things, Lazarus got evil...
etc.

From the facts in the story only......why would Lazarus be rewarded and the Rich Man punished? If taken literally this parable consists of statements that are illogical, unscriptural, contradictory and impossible.

From the story only....is poverty and sickness a virture? Does a well dressed wealthy man equal sin?

I can go on & on with this but will stop and let all meditate.

One more thought on songs and the words written.....not every song ever written is scripturally 100% sound! The church I used to attend sang a song entitled "Lift Jesus Higher" with the intention of this meaning praise Him (I guess). The song goes on to say.."He said if I be lifted up....." So this is actually saying.....lift Him up higher on the cross! I don't think that "I'll Fly Away" is the most sound song either. Some Petra songs have some phrases that aren't exactly 100% sound. On Farewell John says in Amazing Grace....."though we've been HERE 10,000 years". Huh??? I've only been here 40. The church around 2000.

[PetFCtr]

I really do not want to debate calvin. Yes he believed that Jesus was the Son of God.

Rich, I don't recall if you ever provided some insight into the passages from the Psalms I mentioned the last time this discussion came up. I don't recall that you provided your opinion on what the substitutionary death of Christ actually means.


If you agree that his death is substitutionary, then he in fact was punished the way we would have been punished. If his death was not substitutionary (and it is unequivocally clear from Scripture that it was), then we are responsible for satisfying God's justice--and we cannot.

In the end, you're quibbling about geography; but a short distance from your thesis is that Jesus' punishment wasn't commensurate with God's justice.

Please re-post the Psalm passages your talking about.

[sue d.]

On Farewell John says in Amazing Grace....."though we've been HERE 10,000 years".

That's speaking in terms of how long the earth has been in existance. You hear scientists and others speak of millions, and billions.... but there has been research based on timelines in the bible which indicate the earth is less than 10,000 years old.

[Michael]

On Farewell John says in Amazing Grace... "though we've been HERE 10,000 years". Huh??? I've only been here 40. The church around 2000.

Hmm! Not sure if this is a case of sarcasm or ignorance... probably sarcasm, I'd guess. I can't believe I missed this! This is an example of one of John's famous lyric flubs. The hymn lyric (and the lyric in the original Petra recording of this on Revival) goes "When we've been there ten thousand years..." Meaning Heaven. I wouldn't consider that a point of Theology; that's a mistake.

[winterlens]

Please re-post the Psalm passages your talking about.

See http://thepetrazone.net/viewtopic.php?t ... c&start=30.

I quote myself in brief, and somewhat out of context:

There are other indications, though, couched in some of the Messianic Psalms. See 16.10, 18.5, 23.4a, 30.3, 86.13, 88, 116.3, etc. 16.10 is especially problematic for your position unless you are trying to contend that Sheol is a figure of speech.

[BForm]

One more thought on songs and the words written.....not every song ever written is scripturally 100% sound! The church I used to attend sang a song entitled "Lift Jesus Higher" with the intention of this meaning praise Him (I guess). The song goes on to say.."He said if I be lifted up....." So this is actually saying.....lift Him up higher on the cross! I don't think that "I'll Fly Away" is the most sound song either. Some Petra songs have some phrases that aren't exactly 100% sound. On Farewell John says in Amazing Grace....."though we've been HERE 10,000 years". Huh??? I've only been here 40. The church around 2000.[/quote]

In the original, written by John Newton, he was definitely referring to "there" meaning in heaven. The point was definitely the infinite number of days we will have in eternity. Otherwise the "we've no less days" is totally nonsensical. Every day we have here is one less on this earth.

By the way, this song originally had something like 23 verses to it, all speaking of the Amazing Grace of God. Newton was so Amazed by God's free grace because he was......uhh....a Calvinist.