Josh Mcdowell

[js3971]

Yes, God's grace is sufficient for Paul or for anyone else with our "thorns" in the flesh. But it is sufficient for us not only in the problem, it's sufficient for us to get out of the problem.

You're right when you say we all have trials and tribulations, or tests, or whatever you want to call them. Jesus said we would have them. And you're right to ask, are we going to trust God and what he says in and through those circumstances, or are we going to trust the circumstances.

David said that though he walked through the valley of the shadow of death, he fears no evil. Notice David walked through it, he didn't stay camped out there. God gave him the power to walk through it and not to fear anything the devil might bring him. If he would have feared, he would have been devoured in the valley.

God has given us not a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power, of love, and a sound mind.

God let his son die on the cross, and put the sins, sicknesses and diseases of the world on him, so we wouldn't have to carry them any more. Jesus had not taken the sins of the world yet when Job lived. And Job was not yet trusting God in his circumstances. That's why God told him what he did. But God brings correction in our lives to help us be more like him, not to kill us.

Satan brings destruction in our lives to kill us, not to help us. His job is to bring hell into our lives here on earht. Most people, includiing Christians, do a good job of letting him do a good job. Most Christians don't take the authority that God gave them and use it. God has given us his Word, his Spirit, but most of don't use it. And sometimes the death isn't physical. God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree or they would die. They didn't die physically until another 900 years or so. It brought spiritual death to them and to everyone since. But the second Adam died that we would have life, and have it to the full.

See, most Christians think their job is to get people into heaven. And that is part of it. But what most of us don't realize is, is that it's also our job to bring heaven to earth. We're citizens of heaven. We are Christ's ambassadors. A country's ambassadors has the full authority and backing to act on behalf of the country that sent them. We have the full of authority and backing of the One who sent us.

Jesus told us to pray that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. There's no disease, no sickness, no crime, no poverty, no sin, etc.

God's will isn't for us to live in those things. Most Christians think that God's will is always done. But we can tell that it's not. Scripture tells us that it is God's will that none shall perish. But we know that everyday, people are dying and going straight to hell.

[Petra24]

JS--- I hate to continue disagreeing with you but have to say that I cannot agree with some of your latest post. God's "will" will always be done. We cannot supercede that with any power that we have. If God wants something to be done it will be done. He is all powerful. Period.

"People are going straight to hell"---proof please. According to the Bible when people die they go to the grave. Since no man has seen the Father and judgment has not occured any other option is not accurate. I have a relative that recently had a heart attack and was "dead" for nearly 2 minutes. He has no memory of the time he was "dead". If people go straight to hell or heaven he would have been in one place or the other. Right? Where was he during this 2 minute stretch? Waiting for an elevator? Waiting for God to decide his fate? I think not.

By the way...your previous comment about "sick God" is WRONG! The Bible is very clear that God rains on the just and the unjust, that he created EVERYTHING and that nothing "surprises" Him. Modern theology would want to take God out of the equation and remove all responsibility from Him but that simply is not in line with the scripture. God is responsible for everything in creation and is willing to take responsibility.

Still waiting for your thoughts on need/greed. You seem to be passionate concerning this issue.

Peace.

[js3971]

My thoughts on planes, trains, and automobiles. They're pretty convenient modes of travel.

All seriousness aside.

I've stated that when people give their money as a gift to someone, it is no longer anyone's business what they do with that money. I'm not saying if the money was given out of wrong motives or not, either by the giver or the receiver. It's still none of our business.

Second, the people that we're talking about do use these things for personal use. So what, you use your house for personal use. You use your car for personal use. Do you drive a nice car or one that's old and beat up. If it's the latter, wouldn't you like a nicer one. Where is the greed in that? If you live in a small house, wouldn't you like a nicer one, to have more room, to do more work or play, whatever.

The people that we have been talking about use their money for ministry also. And they use it in some of the poorest places. Benny Hinn has been all over Africa, India, and other 3rd world conuntries. He spends millions of dollars to do these types of things. So do the others we are talking about. It is easier for them to do the things they do when they have private jets, etc. I have no problem with them having these things.

Now you might say well they're using ministry money to do that. Well, are we not all ministers. Are we not all supposed to use the things God has given us to bless others with. But he also tells us to enjoy those things ourselves. The problem isn't that those people have those things, it's because we get jealous and angry because we don't have those things, and to justify us acting in a way that isn't right, we find someone else to put the blame on.

By the way, TBN people aren't the only ones who have nice houses, cars, etc. There are tons of Baptist pastors whose sole ambition is to be the pastor of a large first baptist church, because that's where they know the money is. So continue to slam people if you want, but if you're going to do it, slam everyone. But if you're going to forgive people, forgive everyone as well.

The problem that bothers us isn't something in the TBN people or whoever. The problem is something in us that isn't trusting God and his word.

[Shell]

Some good points js. I've said before there's nothing intrinsically wrong with having money. It's when money becomes more important than anything else that it becomes a problem. It's true that if you choose to give a gift to someone, what they do with it is up to them, and that applies in any situation. But people send these folks money expecting it to be used for God's work, support a cushy lifestyle, and it's misleading to let them think they're contributing to God's work when they're supporting a cushy lifestyle. That applies to anybody too. Of course they need houses to live in and have bills to pay like anyone else, but we're talking excess here. You don't need a million dollar house or vacations in Hawaii to survive.

There was a very good book in the 1980s called "Ashes to Gold" that gave a lot of good insight into some of the traps these folks fall into, and none of us are above having the same thing happen to us. I think it's out of print, which is a shame, a lot of it still applies now.

[js3971]

Shell, you're right. Scripture says that the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. It also tells us not to trust in riches.

Now notice it says the love of money is the root, not money itself. Second, notice it says all kinds of evil. It does not say it's the root of all evil. Usually this verse is misquoted in these two ways and usually by people (not saying any of you have done this) who come against the faith teachers.

Whenever we love anything more than God, we become a slave to it. It becomes our god. It can be money, a job, a person, sex, fame, things, sports, ourselves, religion, doctrine, school, whatever.

Now there is nothing wrong with loving ourselves. God says the greatest commandment is to love him with all of our hearts, mind, soul, and strength. He says the second one is just like the first. We are to love others or our neighbors as we love ourselves. But if we're not loving ourselves the way God loves us, we will never be able to truly love others.

And we should be careful of this. Because scripture makes it clear that if we aren't loving someone the way God loves them, we are really hating them. And if we hate them, we've already murdered them. And if we're not loving ourselves the way God loves us, we are basically killing ourselves.

To the person who got offended because I said "straight to hell." Why do you get offended that TBN or wordfaithers take scripture more literally than most, but then get offended over something like that. Ok maybe they don't go directly there. But you know what I meant by my statement. People are dying everyday, and they will wind up in hell, sheol, the firy pit, whatever you want to call it, and that's where they will be whatever time it happens to be.

Yes God rains on the just and the unjust. Because he is merciful. That verse is talking about God providing for the just and the unjust too. That's why God is still holding back the calling of the saints to him, because he wants as many to know him and his goodness as possible.

His will is always done? So obviously you think his will is for people to dye starving. You think his will is for people to be brutally raped and tortured. You think it's his will for parent's children to be kidnapped. If this is his will, why did God not put these things in the garden with Adam and Eve. He didn't. He provided everything they needed. He told Adam to guard the garden. Adam didn't obey this, thus he was deceived and Eve sinned. These things came as a result of sin. Maybe not a particular sin someone has done, but because of the sin problem in the world.

God now tells us to guard our gardens. Before anyone takes me literally, what he actually says is to guard our hearts. Guard it against what. The thief. God plants his seed or his word in your heart. You must guard it against the seeds or words of satan or doubt or unbelief.

Now to be a critic of myself and the word faithers a bit myself. Sometimes when people come for healing, they don't get it or receive it. For me or anyone else to blame it on the person for not having faith or enough faith can at times be wrong. When Jesus healed, it always happened. Jesus gave his disciples the same authority to do it as well. There is one istance when the disciples could not cast the demon out, and they asked Jesus "why couldn't we do it." He responded, "how much longer must I be with you." Meaning how much longer am I going to have to do this for you, when I've given you the authority to do it yourself. But then he said it was because of the disciples unbelief. He then says that this kind only comes out by prayer and fasting.

But there are times when Jesus couldn't heal because of the people's unbelief. He said he could do no miracles in his own hometown because of unbelief and because the people wouldn't honor him.

Now most people think he's saying that this kind of demon only comes out by prayer and fasting. But Jesus didn't go and fast or pray at that time and he was able to cast it out. What he is saying is to the disciples, that this kind of unbelief only comes out by prayer and fasting. There was something of doubt or unbelief within the disciples themselves that needed to be taken care of before they could do it to someone else in this instance.

A lot of people want to help people get the demons or problems out of other's lives, when they have plenty of demons or problems in their own lives. That's why Jesus told us to get the plank out of our own eye, then we'll be able to help our neighbor with the splinter in theirs.

[js3971]

Oh one other point, lol. How do we know that these people are using the money given to them by people to buy these things with. I'm not saying they are or they aren't. But is it possible they may buy these things with money they've made other ways, possibly from the books, tapes, and other stuff they sell.

I don't know if people are mislead in this or not, because I think that most people realize the kinds of life that these people live before they give to the ministry.

[js3971]

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/sovereign

Here's a definition of sovereignty. It says full or surpreme authority. Jesus told us that he had been given full authority, that means at some point, he didn't have that.

He then says that he has given that to us. HMMM.

[winterlens]

Yes, God's grace is sufficient for Paul or for anyone else with our "thorns" in the flesh. But it is sufficient for us not only in the problem, it's sufficient for us to get out of the problem.

Then why, praytell, didn't God take away Paul's thorn? It was so that Paul would not be exalted above measure (2Co 12.7). Paul's weakness was given him expressly so that God would be glorified, not Paul. It had nothing to do with Paul's lack of faith, but everything to do with God's glory. This was a permanent condition, from what we're given to understand in the Scripture.

God let his son die on the cross, and put the sins, sicknesses and diseases of the world on him, so we wouldn't have to carry them any more. Jesus had not taken the sins of the world yet when Job lived.

He most certainly had. Revelation 14.6 describes Christ as "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Though the death of Christ occurred in time, the act was considered finished long before. This is the sense of John 19.30; Christ does not say "It is finished," but rather "It has been finished." The Greek is a perfect tense.

And Job was not yet trusting God in his circumstances. That's why God told him what he did. But God brings correction in our lives to help us be more like him, not to kill us.

God not only wounds, he also kills. "I wound, I heal," he says of himself, and also, "I kill and I make alive." I have quoted this verse already in this thread.

Job's error was not lack of faith; it was to assume that his personal righteousness indebted God to him.

Satan brings destruction in our lives to kill us, not to help us. His job is to bring hell into our lives here on earht. Most people, includiing Christians, do a good job of letting him do a good job.

Satan has a certain set of powers that have been given to him by God. He was given authority to touch Job in certain ways and restricted in others. God was in complete control of Job's situation the entire time--not Satan.

The same is true of us. We are protected by God until he decides the hedge should come down. Satan's power has little to nothing to do with our lack of faith in the sense that you want it to. We have trials and tribulations to reinforce our faith. James writes that we should count it all joy to fall into trial, because it refines our faith.

Most Christians don't take the authority that God gave them and use it. God has given us his Word, his Spirit, but most of don't use it. And sometimes the death isn't physical.

Why you haven't used the converse notion, I don't know. Life isn't always physical either. When Christ says that he came to bring life, he wasn't talking about a full physical life free of illness and disability.

See, most Christians think their job is to get people into heaven. And that is part of it.

It's none of our responsibility. That's God's responsibilty. Our responsibility is to preach the Word. God takes it from there.

But what most of us don't realize is, is that it's also our job to bring heaven to earth.

I don't think that in the sense you do. We know that the earth will pass away--a new earth will come. The old will be destroyed. We are told in Romans 8 that all of creation anticipates this, groaning for the redemption of our bodies.

Jesus told us to pray that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. There's no disease, no sickness, no crime, no poverty, no sin, etc.

What in the world makes you think that God doesn't want poverty, crime, and sickness? It costs him less than nothing to fix those problems, and he can do so easily. What is the impediment to God's will here? If he doesn't want me to have an eye infection, why do I still have it? And if you can imagine a circumstance in which my lack of faith somehow trumps God's will, your God is very small.

God's will isn't for us to live in those things. Most Christians think that God's will is always done. But we can tell that it's not. Scripture tells us that it is God's will that none shall perish. But we know that everyday, people are dying and going straight to hell.

I think if you read the context more carefully, you would think differently. The "none should perish" is limited to his children.

There is no circumstance when God's will is not executed (I have mentioned several passages from the Bible that say this very thing; in the Psalms, we read that God did what he pleased on earth and in heaven, and in Isaiah that when he works, none can prevent him). He is omnipotent. There is no division or conflict in him. He does not say, "Well, I wish I could do this, but some better good prevents me."

God's will is always done. Without fail.


I hope it is obvious that my objection to what you have written has absolutely nothing to do with money and everything to do with your theology. As Job said, "Should we accept good only from the Lord, and not also evil?"

[winterlens]

His will is always done? So obviously you think his will is for people to dye starving. You think his will is for people to be brutally raped and tortured. You think it's his will for parent's children to be kidnapped.

This is getting a little over-done, don't you think?

The problem of pain is obvious: if God is sovereign, why is the world so nasty?

Without sin, you don't need God.

The major problem is that you think the world's problems are worse than the crucifixion. I am flat-out telling you that God has every right to do with this earth as he pleases, including torture, rape, murder, kidnapping, et c. It is his earth.

And when we rise up in judgment against God, he will point to the cross and say, "I know." We do not know his plans nor his thoughts. He surely judges, both by natural and super-natural consequence. The problems of the earth are a result of sin, and God's judgment on sin is to let it fester. Sin is its own worst consequence.


God has purchased the world for himself. He spent his son to do it. The suffering of the cross is worse than any evil in this world.

[js3971]

I am flat-out telling you that God has every right to do with this earth as he pleases, including torture, rape, murder, kidnapping, et c. It is his earth.

You're right, this is getting overdone.

[js3971]

So if a man does this, torture, rape, brutality in his own home to his own children, is it ok? According to your reasoning it is, it's his house, they're his kids.

Even by the world's standards, such a person would be considered sick, and not someone anyone would want to love.

[charl]

No one is saying that. Comparing sinful people to God always gets you into trouble. That's why he continually said he's not like us. He is perfect, and so are his motives. God does have the right to use whatever means necessary to bring about his purposes, and those are always good. Because he does not make us privy to the ultimate outcome of the plan doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing or that he's somehow bad.

One of the better exchanges concerning this is found in Habakkuk. There and elsewhere in scripture, God himself claims responsibiliy for many calamities. in fact it is said too often in scripture (remember we all agreed this was our authority...) for us to just shrug it off because we don't like it.

BTW, none of US is "somebody anyone would want to love", so what right do we have to say what God should or should not be? The worst sin is not rape or kidnapping, it's (ironically) not loving God for who he presents himself to be. And that is one we've all been guilty of. God does not owe us anything.

Ah my irritation is showing isn't it. It always does in the end. My father is in the middle of a long lingering painful death. I don't need more people telling me it's my fault because I don't have enough faith, or that God really wishes he could help but he's just too weak and useless, crying like a little baby but not doing anything (so why even believe in him then?).
I would rather think that God uses this to further his causes and glorify himself; and since he is good, so is this trial.

The first two assertions are much much crueler than the latter if you ask me. If that's really the way things are, what's the point to anything? We have arrived at the same place as the teacher of Ecclesiastes.

[Petra24]

Charl---I will pray for you & strength during this time. May God grant you and your father peace.

Both you & Wintelens make some great, scripturally sound comments.

Peace.

[Petra24]

JS--we should probably agree to disagree. My belief is that entertainers can and should be paid like entertainers and I don't have a problem with them gaining large sums of money. Ministers of the gospel flying their staff to Hawaii for a meeting, owning private jets, traveling to Europe (example) and staying in $1000 per night rooms is not using ministry money properly. Then having the gall to go on TBN and request money. Farce. You wrote earlier about ministers going into the business to have the largest church in America basically for financial gain. I would say to these and all who are getting rich on the gospel that they have recieved their reward.

Peace to you.

[js3971]

Charl, you make some good points. And I'm not saying that the reason your dad is sick is your fault or his. And you're doing right in continuing to trust God through the circumstances.

People in this discussion keep saying that God brings evil on people, when the NT clearly says that he is not tempted by evil and he doesn't tempt with evil.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. Yes, the death Jesus suffered is worse than anything any of us could ever suffer here on earth. I praise him that he did that do I don't have to.

But to say to someone the reason you got raped is because God let it happen or God did it to you is to me as ridiculous as most of you think I am.

I John says God is love. I Corinthians 13 then describes what or who love is. The way most people in this discussion have described him doesn't sound like that.

I'm not saying that God can't bring good out of bad situations. That's why he died on the cross for our sins, to bring good out of a bad situation.

I'm also not saying that God doesn't judge. He does, but he does it righteously, not self righteously as man does.

The things that have happened in New Orleans, are they a judgement or not? Some Christians say yes, others say no.

But Christians are so afraid that they are going to be judged, when Christ has already taken their judgement for them. There were Christians affected by the hurricanes. God warned them and non Christians it was coming whether it was a judgement or not. People also warned them it was coming. But so many, Christian and non, decided not to listen.

Jesus said he came to preach good news. Jesus also said if you've seen him, you've seen the father. Scripture also says that God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

I don't see Jesus once ever telling someone "instead of being good to you, I'm going to let you get raped, tortured, etc. to teach you a lesson. Then maybe you'll know I'm God."

He never did anything to someone to wound them. He always healed. Now true, he didn't heal everyone. But he did heal all of those who came to him.

Jesus is the full expression of God, who is he is, what he does. He said it himself, I'm the way, the TRUTH, and the life. He is also called the Word that was made flesh. So if he's the Word, and he's good, if we're seeing a part of God that seems bad or evil, then maybe we're not seeing something quite right.

Jesus then instructs us to be like him. He doesn't tell us to do things like him. He tells us to be like him. Most Christians do things hoping to become like him. When people do this, they become self righteous, instead of being the righteousness of God, that Scripture tells us we already are. If we'd just be what he's already told us we are, the doing would take care of itself.

He says all the things I'm doing, you will do also. He also says you wil do greater things than I did.

I know some will say he only meant those things for the disciples back then. And they'll say this and that (tongues for one) were meant for only his disciples or back then. Well if this is true, how can any of be sure any of what Jesus said was just for then or for now also, including salvation itself.

If it sounds like I'm angry in my posts, I do not intend it that way. For man's anger does not bring about the righteousness of God.

I'm actually enjoying this discussion because it is challenging my belief and my faith and why I believe it.