Answer this Greg Volz question

[js3971]

I was listening to the Beat the System CD the other day, and one song reminded me of this entire thread. The song was "Witch Hunt." I hope the stones you guys are throwing don't hurt too much when they return to hit you in your own heart.

This will be my only posts on this thread.

[Edward]

Naaaah. I am watching....No way I'm getting into this one now. Back to editing drums.

[executioner]

Okay, here are a few additional observations for your consideration. First of all, I think many of us are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. It seems like we have a fundamental disagreement on the nature of the work of a Christian artist. Some of us feel that "Christian artist" is an occupation just like anybody else's--ditch-digger, lawyer, accountant, food service, etc. Other's feel that a "Christian artist" is a type of minister, and as such needs to be held accountable to the biblical standards for a minister. As long as we disagree on this, we will never agree on the other issues being discussed here. And I'm not saying that we have to agree on this issue. Christians should be free to disagree on this subject and debate it.

I think we will all have to agree that we are not going to agree.

Second, whether we like it or not, divorce is a public sin. Our local newspaper has a "legal" section that lists all of the divorces granted in our county over the past month. If I so desired, I could go up to the county courthouse, fill out a bunch of paperwork and request to see a copy of any divorce decree on record. And unless that decree has been sealed by a judge, it is perfectly legal for me to do so. That decree would list the reason for the divorce granted, as well as child custody and property issues. Now, I have never done this, and I probably never will do this. But it is legal. It is public information. For that matter, if I wanted to pay enough money, I could obtain the same information through one of the "background check" services on the internet. This information is a matter of public record. There is nothing malicious or "gossipy" about seeking information that is available to the public.

Yes, It is in our newspaper every Tuesday. They are required by law to make it public. Most states are vague on the reasoning for divorce, but I know my state is very specific publically why the divorce happened; example if adultery was the cause it will say adultrey and who was at fault. Also I know Louisana makes you go through a certain amount of hours of marriage counseling before a judge can grant a divorce.

Third, since I believe a "Christian Artist" is a minister and since the details of a decree are a matter of public record, I think it is in the artist/minister's best interest to disclose, at least, the legal reason for the divorce. If the divorce is biblical and the artist/minister is the innocent party, then nothing more needs to be said. If the divorce is not biblical or the artist/minister is the offending party, then it would be appropriate for the artist/minister to include a statement that he/she has confessed and repented of his/her sin in the matter. I don't need to know or want to know all of the sleazy details of the divorce, nor do I need a step by step description of his repentance. I just want to know if the divorce was biblical, and if not, that the artist/minister has acknowledged their sin and repented before God. That's it.

I agree! Even if it was twenty years ago.

Fourth, I do not believe that a Christian artist/minister is obligated to do this. I merely think that it is in their best interest to do so. However, if an artist/minister absolutely refused to do this, I would seriously have to consider whether or not I could support their ministry.

I would most likely not be supporting their ministry any longer.

Fifth and finally, I do not believe that a divorce is the "unforgivable sin." I do not believe that a divorce disqualifies anyone from any position in the church as long as any one of the following three conditions apply--1. The divorce occurred before the person became a Christian; 2. The divorce was biblical and the person in question was the innocent party; 3. If the person was the offending party, he/she has confessed their sin and exhibited the fruit of repentance to a local body of the church.

PS. Let me also say that I realize some of you on this forum have experienced the pain of divorce in your own life. I hurt for you. Though I have never been divorced, I do remember very vividly the pain and disruption my parent's divorce caused in our lives when I was 14. And as a Pastor I have counseled with too many couples who have experienced this tragedy in their lives. I see the pain of divorce reflected in the faces of my congregation just about every Sunday. In no way do I wish to insinuate that Christians who suffer divorce are somehow tainted Christians. Nor do I think divorce is a scarlet letter that one must wear in shame for the rest of their life. To the contrary, if a divorce is handled biblically, it can turn into a testimony of the remarkable forgiveness and grace found in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Next

[Preacherman777]

I hope the stones you guys are throwing don't hurt too much when they return to hit you in your own heart.

You know, I've seen this accusation made several times now and I'm still trying to figure out just who is throwing stones. I don't hear anyone here who shares the view I do crying out for anyones blood. I don't see anyone wanting to beat up on any artist for any past sins. The only thing I am seeing is a cry for Christian accountability. If you are a Christian public figure who presumes to teach or influence others in the name of Christ, then let your life be an example of Biblical practices and if you fail in that regard, than go on the record with an example of how to repent and be restored. This is really a no brainer, people. 100% Biblical. Those who are crying out against this, should really be checking your motives.

Look, we all sin. It's a reality of life, but each time we reach out for forgiveness it is a testament to the difference that Jesus has made in our lives. For there was a time that we did not seek forgiveness and our hearts were hard. There was a time that we were too proud to humble ourselves and ask for help. Let's not return to that condition of being too proud to allow Jesus victory over our failures to be a testamony to all.

I have no fear of this coming back to hurt me, because if I am in sin and my sin finds me out and I am exposed, than glory be to God, because it's the best thing for me.

[Edward]

The last part of that quote above is true:

All things work together for (His) good, who are called according....

There are quite a few homosexual ministries headed up by former gays.
There are many marraige counselers, couples, etc, that minister to those on the brink of dissaster, as they have been there themselves.
There are many former convicts that minister in prisons.
Paul was the biggest killer of the church before he was knocked off his DAWN-KEH (Say like Shrek). Look at what he did.

All have sinned. Heck all DO sin. Everyday. Sins that we know about, and sins that we don't. It is all under the blood. We are living for a God that is a replacment God. In the bible, there is example after example where God replaces lost relationships and physical things with those lost. It may not be the same person, but it is another relationship. Job is an example. The desciples are others.

Who would you want giving you advice if you were looking to get into business? A successful millionare or someone with book knowledge. Remember that most millionares have been bankrupt twice as many times as they have encountered success.

Who would you want giving you advice on building an engine? A Nascar builder or a CAD designer who knows what "should" work in a perfect world?

The same thing holds true for life. We are told in the bible to seek the councel of Godly elders. Elders does not only mean those older, but those experienced. True, I want to hear from both sides. I want to hear about successful marraiges, so that I may learn. I want to hear about failed ones too so that I know what not to do.

[Shell]

This thread has become more about accountability in general, but that isn't how it started out. It started out with someone trying to get information on Greg's divorce specifically, and there's no constructive reason to discuss that on a message board, even if we did know the circumstances, which isn't the case for the majority of us. I'm with Brent...It's the public for the most part that puts these folks on a pedestal and tends to be shocked to discover they're not saints. I'll say it again: It's not fair to expect something of them we wouldn't want for ourselves, and I doubt any of us would want our business discussed on a message board.

[unlost]

well shell, I think it is tied together.
also i have seen posts claiming musicians are not pastors and that is irrelevant to me because divorce is wrong whoever you are.
but for some it determines if their ministry will continue to be supported.
i mostly don't feel that way, but there's no sense in dodging this issue.
where i am coming from as the originator of the thread is to raise awareness of the problem instead of burying our heads in hte sand. i and you all don't have all the answers, but at least we should try to find some instead of allowing the awkwardness and personal nature of the issue cause us to keep ignoring it.
if somehow i experienced a divorce i would want others to show mercy and help me, but i wouldn't feel good about justifying the whole thing. i wouldn't feel good about hiding it either. yes it's painful to talk about, but it's the only way healing can come.
maybe it's not wisdom to discuss all the details and fall into the "he said, she said" syndrome. i'm almost willing to suggest divorcees to have the guts to make it public, but i'm not sure. each divorce would require different care.

But obviously what we're doing now isn't working effectively.

[Preacherman777]

This thread started out with someone wanting to know if there was anything known or on the record about the divorce. This is not an unreasonable question at all, in light of the accountability factor. If I knew very little about Amy Grant and was interested in her music, but heard about the divorce and it gave me cause for concern, I would probably do the same thing. Ask people who might already know, what is out there "on the record" about that situation. In Amy's case, there is enough out there "on the record" to allow us to see how she handled her moral failure in the eyes of the public. There is certainly enough info there for people to make a decision about whether or not to support her music.

In Greg's case I'm unaware of there being anything out there on the record that would allow people to make the same kind of determination. But there is nothing wrong with asking the question and that is where I have a problem what so many of you did. It was like you wanted to crucify this fellow for even daring to ask the question. It was a shameful display.

[BeReady]

I was listening to the Beat the System CD the other day, and one song reminded me of this entire thread. The song was "Witch Hunt." I hope the stones you guys are throwing don't hurt too much when they return to hit you in your own heart.This will be my only posts on this thread.

Could I please ask you to be specific. If you could demonstrate where I have thrown a stone at anyone, I would be more than willing to apologize. It rather seems to me that you have thrown your stone at us and now you have hidden safely back behind the bushes!

Come on, we are all mature Christians here, aren't we? Can't we have an honest disagreement and leave the righteous indignation at home. I have enjoyed the honest exchange of ideas and discussion.

Brent, thank you for your thoughtfull response to my response to your response. I pretty much agree with what you said in your comments clarifying your position on sin. Still kinda disagree on the artist/minister thing. But must admit you have your points. I have one further question for you.

First, in order to avoid possible confusion, let me give a hypothetical situation. Let's say Jim (fictional person, no relation to anyone living or dead) wants to go into Christian music. After much prayer and soul searching he feels that God is calling him into this vocation and Jim views himself as a minister of the Gospel, he refers to his music as a ministry and himself as a minister at concerts, in interviews with CCM magazine, and on the liner notes of his CD. Since Jim views himself as a minister, in your opinion should Jim be held to a higher standard and a higher level of accountability?

BTW, Hey Edward do you need any help with those drum edits???

[executioner]

Anytime any of you think that CCM artists are not held to a higher accountability factor, then please go and read James 3:1 and explain how you disagree with what James is saying. I also think that Sunday School teachers and in home Bible study leaders are held to a higher accountability.

[executioner]

The last part of that quote above is true:

All things work together for (His) good, who are called according....

There are quite a few homosexual ministries headed up by former gays.
There are many marraige counselers, couples, etc, that minister to those on the brink of dissaster, as they have been there themselves.
There are many former convicts that minister in prisons.
Paul was the biggest killer of the church before he was knocked off his DAWN-KEH (Say like Shrek). Look at what he did.

All have sinned. Heck all DO sin. Everyday. Sins that we know about, and sins that we don't. It is all under the blood. We are living for a God that is a replacment God. In the bible, there is example after example where God replaces lost relationships and physical things with those lost. It may not be the same person, but it is another relationship. Job is an example. The desciples are others.

Who would you want giving you advice if you were looking to get into business? A successful millionare or someone with book knowledge. Remember that most millionares have been bankrupt twice as many times as they have encountered success.

Who would you want giving you advice on building an engine? A Nascar builder or a CAD designer who knows what "should" work in a perfect world?

The same thing holds true for life. We are told in the bible to seek the councel of Godly elders. Elders does not only mean those older, but those experienced. True, I want to hear from both sides. I want to hear about successful marraiges, so that I may learn. I want to hear about failed ones too so that I know what not to do.

All those people you listed above most likely have repented and turned away from those sins that were commited.

[Shell]

Okay, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to point out something that's obviously a problem, and not burying our heads in the sand is an idea I agree with. So now you've raised your concerns; what do you suggest should happen now?

[executioner]

Okay, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with wanting to point out something that's obviously a problem, and not burying our heads in the sand is an idea I agree with. So now you've raised your concerns; what do you suggest should happen now?

Ok Shell who are you talking too here?

[Shell]

Unlost.

[brent]

First of all, I must say that BeReady gave an excellent response. There really isn't much I could add to it and I agree with all of it. I'm sorry to see that after Brent made this big challenge, he opted to not really address the points that BeReady has made. The one thing he did address is whether or not Christian artists should be held as ministers or teachers.

I do not agree that this is something totally applied to them by the fans. Yes, the fans do have a part in that and perhaps to much so at times, but it is most often the artist's themselves who presume to get up there and attempt to teach or minister the gospel through their music. Petra for example has done this more than most bands out there. In James 3:1 it says and I quote

Not many of you should presume to teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Now, Brent wants to put all Christian artists in the same league as say a Christian plumber. Ok, let's say a Christian plumber, while out there on the job is telling his customers about Jesus and teaching them that life in Christ, is life more abundant and free. (I just happen to know a plumber who does this) Let's say that God is blessing his efforts and he is winning converts and these people keep using his service, because they like the message of hope he brings them. He is ministering to many hurting people, people facing marriages on the brink of destruction among other things and he's telling them there is hope in Christ.

Then, one day it comes out that he has asked his wife for a divorce and his customers begin to ask him what's happened. Why didn't your faith work in this situation? His response is simply that he had to do what was right for him in this situation and there is nothing more that anyone needs to know about it. Eventually, word gets out as it usually does, and truth is revealed that he divorced his wife because she had gained too much weight and he didn't find her attractive anymore.

What does this do to his ministry if he is never willing to own up to his error?

Ok, so the plumber gets a divorce. How does that effect the Gospel of Christ? It doesn't. The truth is the truth, no matter who speaks it. Many people probably got saved through Jimmy Swaggart's ministry. He was living in sin for years. Does that negate the salvation of thousands? Heaven's no. Was it a bummer to hear? Sure. Some people probably hoped for it. But it just goes to show that we ALL are human, and we ALL are tempted just as Christ was tempted. The difference is that we give in and Christ did not.

I do not WANT artists to be upheld as church pastors or teachers, because truth be known, they are probably not the most spiritually mature, well grounded people. You can't be all of the time, and still do what you have to do in the INDUSTRY to keep things going, so that you MAKE MONEY.

I have been to some concerts, and have heard some anti-war, all inclusive faith heretical BS. Yes it was from a popular christian band. My daughter, who has great discernment saw their error and no longer listens to them. But how many other's do not?

What about all of the mindless morons that followed Rich Mullins into the teachings of that alcoholic, new-age, Charasmatic, Catholic priest's garbage? They had no discernment and the ragamuffin books flew off of the shelves.