New solo project from John?

[winterlens]

I don't always trust statistics to be accurate, especially religion statistics. Why: 1. It is not possible for staticians to survey every single person/adult on the planet, and 2. Not everyone surveyed will be honest. So how do SBC and Barna know for sure this information is true?

For what it's worth, the problem isn't the math; we can bound statistical error pretty well enough to be confident in them. The source of error is usually in the sample (a truly random sample will produce good statistics, as a rule), the nature of the questions (which Char mentioned), and the variables accounted for in interpretation.

A GREAT read on statistics and their interpretation is called D*** Lies and Statistics (a take from Twain's great quote about three types of lies: Lies, D*** Lies, and Statistics). I would highly recommend it--it's short and deals with a lot of great topics.

[brent]

Billy Graham School of Mission's Dr. Thom S. Rainer has written a book about 5 categories of people and their willingness to accept the gospel. It is a great sociological study.

Sounds interesting..

What's the name of the book?

Here's a link to some:

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cf ... XIZEIJguVg

[brent]

I don't always trust statistics to be accurate, especially religion statistics. Why: 1. It is not possible for staticians to survey every single person/adult on the planet, and 2. Not everyone surveyed will be honest. So how do SBC and Barna know for sure this information is true?

For what it's worth, the problem isn't the math; we can bound statistical error pretty well enough to be confident in them. The source of error is usually in the sample (a truly random sample will produce good statistics, as a rule), the nature of the questions (which Char mentioned), and the variables accounted for in interpretation.

A GREAT read on statistics and their interpretation is called D*** Lies and Statistics (a take from Twain's great quote about three types of lies: Lies, D*** Lies, and Statistics). I would highly recommend it--it's short and deals with a lot of great topics.

Again, either way the stats tell a wicked story. So the samplesi are faulty. Four organizations over a period of 15 years all reach the same conclusions, based on verifiable trends.

The truth of the matter is, based on pop culture, politics, crime rates, prison population...stuff everyone has access to, things aren't working. So either the 70%+ of the country that claim to be "Christian" are living like hell-bound sinners, or we are passive and do not care. Either way, we have a problem, because WE, the CHURCH are no longer driving the morals of society. We look stupid, intollerant, etc to the world.

[greenchili]

Billy Graham School of Mission's Dr. Thom S. Rainer has written a book about 5 categories of people and their willingness to accept the gospel. It is a great sociological study.

Sounds interesting..

What's the name of the book?

Here's a link to some:

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cf ... XIZEIJguVg

Is this it??

"Surprising Insights from the Unchurched and Proven Ways to Reach Them"

[yamasaaaki har har]

Why would any Christian deny Christ in a survey? Why would they deny church affiliation? Why would they lie about souls saved?

That's probably not the case as much as non-Christians lying and saying theyre Christians.

A wiseman once said ...

“Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.”

Good one.

[executioner]

I agree with Brent because there are too many polls out there coming up with about the same stats. Also my pastor has talked alot about this and he seems to agree with what they are saying. And this thread started about John putting out a new solo album. HMMM!

CCM is NOT selling not because of distribution, but because the style they are pushing right now was in like 3-5 years ago in the secular market; 20 yrs ago I probably buying 5-8 CDs a month, but now I've bought one new CD this year and bought 2 last year. We have a very large CCM section at our used CD Warehouse, so I usually go down there and pick up a CD or 2.
I'm also tired of the industry pushing radio at us; Nobody is listening anymore. I don't know of anyone who listens regularly to FM radio. The conveinence of IPod's & MP3's have taken over radio. Also the FCC has said that by 2012 radio will mostly be gone or you will only be able to reach it through satilite radio or through the internet. I know in our area(Dallas) Spanish music/speaking stations are #1-3 in listenership and the few behind that are sports talk or some type of talk radio. No english music stations are in the top 8 in the 4 largest media market in the country. I hope CCM radio dies a very long and slow death, because they are the ones who have put the business in CCM and said to leave the ministry stuff at home. THEY'RE GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVE!

[brent]

Why would any Christian deny Christ in a survey? Why would they deny church affiliation? Why would they lie about souls saved?

That's probably not the case as much as non-Christians lying and saying theyre Christians.

A wiseman once said ...

�Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that.�

Good one.

There were some qualifications to term "Christian", but yes, I think that there can always be an error there. We are all going to be surprised at who is and who isn't in heaven. Only a person and God knows if he/she "knows" God and is walking with him. That said, any decrease in number from those that claimed Christianity, is still a tragedy! Even if it is just one person.

Get your mind off of the method, and unto the matter. Our country is by and large going to hell. That is the matter. How we determine it is of no importance to me. Get out and tell everyone you can. I am under extreme conviction for this, because I have gotten lazy. I have no problems going to the easy targets at the malls, the mormons that come to the door, the jw's that come to the door.

The reason Rainier's book helps me, is because he defines who will have the open door to the gospel, how much, and why. Since I am not God, I do not have all knowledge into every situation. I need help. I do not need all of the data on a person. Just the chance, and the understanding of what their perceptions, questions and arguments will be, based on the averages of generations of others. It is like going into war with the right bullets for your gun.

Now. Check this out for a bridge back to the topic. Anyone, including John, needs to know this SAME data, so that they know how to write music. The Christian message will be heard by people of "various types of soil". So the Christian music will be as well. Now, the music has elements that the spoken word doesn't have, that can till the harder soil, to get it softened up, so that in time, it will be open to more than the music itself, and soak up the message.

The Church at large may not want John, just as it wasn't supporting Petra. Maybe John's music should be more evangelistic. Tell HIS story. Maybe he should do a themed record about his life. He could REALLY take ownership of that and "sell" it to the people. Look at the History Channel, Discovery, VH-1, MTV...they are are playing life-telling epsiodes that are tragic and hopeful. This is where we were trying to go with Project Damage Control, and this is where John should go.

[sue d.]

Yama, could you shorten up your avatar? It's kinda long and I'm constantly scrolling back & forth.

I don't know of anyone who listens regularly to FM radio.

I do. All day long at work. I can't sit with earbuds hanging outta my head, nor have I been provided with an updated computer to listen to mp3s.

Also the FCC has said that by 2012 radio will mostly be gone

That's a mere 6 years away. I can't believe that radio as we know it will be gone and outdated by then... that would affect SO many markets, including the electronics industry.

I hope CCM radio dies a very long and slow death, because they are the ones who have put the business in CCM and said to leave the ministry stuff at home.

Well, it wasn't only radio.... did radio preceed the bands, the touring and the like? No... I don't believe so.

Look at the ENTIRE ccm industry, from record labels to bands to books to everything. Part of the business end IS necessary - you can't continue on, hoping to feed your family if you're constantly losing money on what you're supposed to be making a living from. There has to be SOME business sense involved. But I'll agree - it has been taken to the extreme in many areas.

Our country is by and large going to hell.

I agree. Look at the state of America.... gay marriage & rights, legal to kill thousands of babies, euthenasia on demand, the so-called 'seperation of church & state'... the list goes on and on. I heard a sermon that looked historically and compared the end of great civilizations and the reasons for it - and the U.S. is going down the exact same path. You can only turn your back on God so many times before he says "OK. I've had enough. You're on your own." I feel we're getting very, very close to that point.

The Church at large may not want John, just as it wasn't supporting Petra. Maybe John's music should be more evangelistic. Tell HIS story. Maybe he should do a themed record about his life. He could REALLY take ownership of that and "sell" it to the people.

Nice bridge, Brent. That is a definite thought.... I'm seeing some of this with the programs I'm setting John up with. His life story is what they're interested in, not the awards and albums with Petra, nor his own music - but his LIFE. That is what's grabbing their attention.

I'm really hoping that his book will take that to the next level... and how music ties in with all of that? You have an idea there, Brent. Hmmm...

[executioner]

Sue,

The problem is the right audience or target audience is NOT listening any longer; 15-29 year olds are the target audience, they don't care about the likes of you and me we are old and outdated. On the average in the last 6 years a FM station has lost about 7% of their core audience each year; That would bring it out to be about 40% of their audience. The only gaining market is the spanish music/speaking market and they are all doing very well. KLTY FM in Dallas is the most listened too CCM station in the country and they are struggling to make it in the market; In the last 6 months they have layed off a large % of their workforce, and most FM stations are changing their formats to compete with the Spanish music. I'm a sponser at our church with the youth group and I know that most if not all just get their music off the net and use their Ipods or MP3s. Most of them could not even tell you where the CCM station is on the dial or their call letters.
Also another trend we are seeing is that established musicians like Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, Journey, Lenny Kravitz and many others are no longer releasing their new singles to the radio stations, They are either just putting them out there on their web sites or places like Walmart.com or ITunes. Bon Jovi has said that radio will no longer dictate what their fans and others want to hear. In fact when we went to see Bon Jovi this spring he talked somewhat about radio and was telling the audience not to listen any longer. Radio is starting to see a backlash from the artists because only the artists get played when the Record Companies put up BIG money to the local stations, and also some record companies (Sony, CBS)
are not releasing all their artists singles any longer. Everything is going against FM radio now and I if these trends continue it won't take much to bring the FM stations down next to nothing.

[calicowriter]

Yes, naturally I agree (and hope) there is interest in reading about and hearing about John's life. But that only takes you so far. I think John had the right idea when we talked in IL a few weeks ago when he said he wanted to touch on topics that affect people of his (our) generation. Let's be honest here -- people are more likely to be attracted to something that speaks to their life, something that will solve their problems. (What's in it for ME?)

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- John should write what is on his heart, what fuels his passions. There will be a niche market for it. And if God annoints it, it will reach the many. But trying to fit yourself into what you think people will buy, is not likely to work, nor will it be honest and used by God.

[greenchili]

Billy Graham School of Mission's Dr. Thom S. Rainer has written a book about 5 categories of people and their willingness to accept the gospel. It is a great sociological study.

Sounds interesting..

What's the name of the book?

Here's a link to some:

http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cf ... XIZEIJguVg

Is this it??

"Surprising Insights from the Unchurched and Proven Ways to Reach Them"[/quote]

OK... so could you answer my question now?

[greenchili]

Going back to the statistics a little I will say that although I'm not a big believer in statistics that my life experience does seem to confirm those findings. So I do "feel" that it is true.

As far as music. Personally I don't think an artist should try to target anything. They should write what God calls them to write. If the fans like it, then so be it. I only say that because it just seems false to me.

It is important, though to figure out where your target audience is. If it's europe, well then go to europe. Us US fans can order from his web site.

That's just my personal opinion, INC. Not based on any studies, or market survey's, or whatever.

[executioner]

Greenchili,

You have a good point and kind of what I've been looking to say for a while. Everybody in CCM is looking for their target audience and will leave the Gospel behind to do it. I want an artist to be honest with not only himself but with God and his fans. Write what God has you write and all will fall in according to God's Plan and he will also provide your needs and bless you and your family.

[brent]

Depending on what day it is, I can argue this point both ways. One day, I agree that the Christian music on the shelves is not for me. It is not for me for three reasons. Style, content and my mood. The style speaks for itself. All of it is the same, behind the times, unexciting crap. It's not that the substance is bad, it is actually great. It is praise music to the Heavenly Father. What better thing can we do than sing to Him? I just don't FEEL like that all of the time. Singing along with some of those songs makes me a liar sometimes. Some of the praise songs are unscriptural themselves.

So, I feel guilty for not wanting to listen to music to God, about God, etc. But I am an unemotional guy. This is the way I am. I cannot relate to a song with syrupfest lyrics. I get ssick to my stomache. But, I am glad that it is there for the people that relate to it, and are in a place where they have to have it for whatever reason.

[yamasaaaki har har]

Sorry about the avatar Sue - I'll try to get that fixed soon. My brother knows how to do it so I'll drop by his house tomorrow maybe.