Non-Licensed Lyrics Sites May Face Lawsuits

[greenchili]

Tackle the main issue. How are you a consumer when music is free? How is an artist going to keep making music when the 98% market holder only pays the artist 1 cent per song, when people DO pay?

I'm NOT the one making the music available for FREE. I'm NOT the one who negotiates the contract between the artist and whoever else they deal with. I have NO control over that. I can't go in and fix a way outdated model that shoulda been dumped years ago. That is between the artist and the market holder. The artist creates, the market holder distributes, the consumer consumes. That is the way of things.

I've seen it happen in way to many marriages. It's called "communication breakdown". Parties involved stop talking to eachother because each feels the OTHER is in the wrong. Lawyers get involved, innocent people get harmed.

The only difference is that I as a consumer have nothing to lose, whereas an artist has everything to gain. If the industry's only defense is piracy well then that's just the saddest excuse I've ever heard.

Again you give waaaaay to much credit for piracy. Like I said it all boils down to greed, internally. Go to the source, not the end result. The end result could care less..

So stop trying to pull the CD out of every one else's eye when you have a LP in your own. OK?

[brent]

I don't get your mindset.

You may not be making the music for free. But the public at large wants it for free. The public makes the sites where the music is free. Sometimes bands give in and play along, the ones that need exposure. Once something is free you never can raise the price.

You do have something to lose. Your money. You can make a bad choice. Of course, now that you can preview and/or hear any song any where, you really can't go wrong. I take that back.

What excuse is valid to you? If you ask John, he will tell you South American people know Petra. It is all over the place. There is illegal bootlegging bigtime there. They didn't make squat on those records, nor the illegal ones. It is a serious issue, when you take a band that sells 7 million records, and 70% + of those sales are foreign sales, and there's probably another 50% easy that you can't collect on. I am sure the boys would like to have that money now.

What are you going to tell Petra? Should have gotten a better record deal?

[greenchili]

What are you going to tell Petra? Should have gotten a better record deal?

Do I have to be honest when answering that one? J/K

I'm not making any excuses for piracy, just saying I think it only plays a minor roll in the BIG picture of things and that it is a SYMPTOM of a bigger underlying problem. How's that for a bunch of psychobabble?

Moving on I've heard that story and the first thing that popped in my mind is if any of the below was done...

1) Point out it may be fake (notice I use that specific phrase for a reason, even if it is not accurate) ask the person if they had trouble finding a legit version. You can easily make it look like they "inadvertantly" got jipped by having a pirated version. The idea here is not to be RIGHT, but to find out the WHY.

2) Tell them where they can get it, if it is legally unavailable to them.

Another thing that was not mentioned was whether the CD's that Petra had available at that particular concert where available and/or sold out.

You may not be making the music for free. But the public at large wants it for free. The public makes the sites where the music is free. Sometimes bands give in and play along, the ones that need exposure. Once something is free you never can raise the price.

I didn't price it like that. Why all of a sudden is it MY fault? Because I accept it for free (assuming it is legal). Are you saying I shouldn't download free legally available music from a site because it is immoral?

You do have something to lose. Your money.

Only if I spend it. I meant that in the sense that I the consumer have to pay for a product before I really lose anything. There is nothing at risk on my part except $10-$20 dollars and maybe listening to a lousy record.

My main point is that the public doesn't take to kindly to certain actions, and they are the ones with the purchasing power.

[greenchili]

This is just an additional side note / some thoughts on my part that deal a little indirectly with the main conversation. Please note I'm avoiding tackling such subjects as piracy because that topic has been discussed to death and is a bear in of itself.

You know one thing I always see mentioned in business related courses is... "Charge what the market will bear". But never do they seem to discuss what to do when the market no longer wants to bear it.

When I do computer work for people I know (like my bosses wife) and they ask me how much. I don't charge "what they will bear" I charge what I think is fair to them. Why? Because it is the right thing to do.

One thing going on in the game console industry is that the programmers/publishers want to charge more for their products. Yet over the last 20 years the average price of a game has stayed about the same.

The consumer is not interested in "bearing" that cost. So what does the industry do? Do they blame the consumer? Do they blame piracy? Did it every cross their mind not to produce something that is too expensive to make a profit on?

I firmly believe that the average consumer has only so much they are willing to spend on something before they consider it not worth it. Especially when it comes to things that deal with entertainment (like movies, games, music). When you have so many things vying for you attention where does your money go? Not everyone is gonna buy everything.

One thing I never see mentioned in regards to CD record sales, or even console game sales is the possible effect that the increase in DVD sales had on them. Did it ever cross anyones mind that it was legit competition?

Go on ebay and you'd be amazed at what people would pay for stuff, both in and out of print. Yet everyone is a thief?

Alot of stores these days as far as I know are centrally controlled. The central base determines what will be carried in the local store. Since when does not targeting local interests become "the thing to do"? I can only wonder how often someone walks into a place like best buy only to be dissapointed they cannot find their favorite artist. Either that or all they see is a dozen greatest hits compilation. Best I can tell an average album stays in the store for a VERY short time period.

I'd be willing to bet that if someone somehow managed to make a site somewhere that allowed a user to go on, pick the albums he wants, maybe even the songs. Pay for it and have the CD shipped to him, including the album art and lyrics if it is an album. Or a generic album art and lyrics if it is a mix. Now I'm talking every song possible. Not a limited selection, like alot of sites today are doing. It'll never happen... Why? Because the studios are too greedy and want more than their share.

I was with my brother just the other week and he was surfing around the internet looking for a perfectly legit copy of a song by a one hit wonder band from the late 70's early 80's. Couldn't find the song available no matter how hard he tried. A couple of sites he had to join just to even see what they had available. Again nothing. After a while he just got tired of it. See the thing is, the interest was there (the market), but the product was not available.

Now believe me. I've run into people who are obviously pirating stuff that they have and it is wrong. I generally look down on this type of thing. But my general experience is the average person is a technophobe and has no clue about these type of things.

[brent]

Well, yes Petra should have had a better deal, but they took what they had available. Inpoop aside, the sales I am talking about were when Petra was at their peak in radio and sales wise. Yes, they did do everything that they could to be successful. The man that sold Petra over seas then sells for me now. You can be legit on your side, but there has to be some equally legit people over there to make sales work.

Much of the music world, especially overseas, has standard operating procedure to screw people. That is how it is done, Christian or secular. The Petra boys will tell you this. I can tell you this. You have to get your money up front on everything, because you will never get it otherwise. That is the way it is. Pick up a PollStar magazine and call any sound, lighting or staging company and see if they always get paid. Pick up a Mix Magazine and call studios, see if they get paid. Call anyone that sells to Walmart and see how easy it is to get your invoices paid on time. The whole freakin world is out to jack the next guy up. Want a real kick? Call artists and see how many church wrote hot checks, or weaseled out of paying!

Any serious contract has 50% up front, 50 % upon load-in, or no performance. If you do not get it all up front in foreign markets, you will not get the other 50% much of the time.

Pirating is BIG, huge business for game, music, video and software retailers. In the Chinese markets, we have manufacturers ripping of designs from Shure Microphones, AKG, Aphex, Mackie, Sennheiser and many others, selling imitation product. That's just what I know about because I am in the audio industry. I am sure that there are clothing lines and furniture knock-offs too. It is not just music you see, it is EVERYTHING! Man it is sin! It is greed, theft, etc. Yes these people are poor in these markets, but without a supply there would be no demand.

I would not mind giving free music to these markets where the people are broke-butt poor. It won't be the same music that I give to paying customers. If I had missionary contacts, I would do that through them.

But, just because you, in your world, have a few excuses why things can't be the way I say...well, you should try doing business globally for a while. The world is dark my friend. And selling Christian music in it is an eye opener as to how much darkness bleeds over to our side.

[greenchili]

FWIW I'm not talking about THAT kinda piracy, where products are copied and then sold at a loss to the original owners, especially over in chinese markets. Where they have different laws an agenda's. That kind of stuff does need to be stopped.

I'm mostly referring to casual piracy whereas someone obtains music illegally from the internet or from a friend who copies it for them. I assumed that when the word "FREE" was being so FREELY used in this conversation.

One does have to wonder though that if people are willing to purchase a pirated copy of something that...

A) There is a market for it
B) There is a price the consumer is willing to pay

I certainly cannot speak for other countries because they have different laws and philosophies about things. Not to mention different cultures.

But the business side of things is completely different. If the costs far outweigh the proceeds then something is screwy. If the artists are not paid what they are worth, that's not my fault. That's their fault for allowing it to happen in the first place. It's someone elses fault because they are too greedy to realize this and they hoard all the money for myself.

I'm sure there are alot of good people who are legitimetly trying to create a viable product and sell it but the whole system is already lopsided. Just look at who is getting the money. Unfortunately it will not correct itself until it topples over in on itself and someone new comes along to swindle everyone involved.

If they wanna whine and complain and blame it on the consumer. Then fine, I the consumer will take my money elsewhere. So yes, it is a shame things are that way, I never said they were. I said that I believe that, and I'll use a more specific phrase, "casual" piracy is not the cause of it.

But then last I checked the govt was supposedly helping with catching the people that sell illegally produced items in quantity.

Oh and no doubt where lucky the CCM industry even managed to exist. It pretty much bloomed in died in what? 20-30 years? I will miss it much and hold funeral processions at least weekly for it.

[executioner]

Ok I'm not able to read all the above posts but will put my 2 cents in.

Their are 3 people that are in the wrong here and they are the ones who have created this problem and the consumer has come along and taken advantaged of the situation.


Radio: These people think they can do whatever they want and up until a couple of years ago that was the case. They dictated what the consumer got to hear, but now times are changing and they are losing their listenership by an average of 7% a year. The system is changing and will be gone as we know it in 5-8 years. Praise God!

Music Industry: These people are probably some of the most crooked people around. The FBI has publicly said they put them in with the Maifa as a organization, and Congress has been trying for years to pass Bills to stop their dealings. They rip artists off, they payoff radio to play only certain songs, and then they illegally release these downloads to the internet then cry foul and want to sue everyone when their songs are taken.

Artists: On one point I feel sorry for them, but then again they are so stupid for signing these one-sided contracts and letting Record Execs dictate what songs are put on the albums and what songs get released to radio. Most albums today are not truly what the artists want you to hear. Even some Record Companies dictate what songs an artist can play live and also how long they are able to play. They're the only ones that can stop this vicious circle.

[brent]

GC, you keep proving my point with your own words. What will the market bare? Right now the trend is next to nothing.

So the REAL question is, how do we expect musicians to step out on their own, circumvent the system, if people are not willing to pay for music, or continue paying as much as they are now.

Clarification Executioner. The artists have been forced into the situation that has been the industry standard corrupt business, if they want to be a big selling, big tour revenue making artist. There are no indie artists today starting today that will ever approach download, CD or tour revenues of someone in the business. In the Christian market, that by NO means that the artist is less successful, as God uses all of us, big or small, talking to one or many.

What the market will bare: Well, that is dictated by the retailer, not the artist, not the record company (for the most part). So blame Walmart, Best Buy, Tower, etc, etc. The artist gets no more for a CD now than they did 30+ years ago. The studios get no more than they did 40 years ago. Cost of manufacturing hasn't changed either. Most CDs sell to a distributor for around $3.00-4.00 Each. Out of that all royalties are paid to the musicians who played, producers, writers, etc. That's all the band gets. The distributor buys it at that, minus freight, sells it to the retailers. the retailers like to make 100% in the bargain bin. That is what sets the price. The distributor positions and packages product so that the retailers have a current hot draw, an up and coming hot draw that will take over when the other craps out, and then one behind that. They like artists that support the product in the retailer's area via tour and co-op advertising, all of this at the artists expense. Then the artist pays for all returns, unless you negotiate that away, which means you sekk your CDs for about $2.25-2.75 each.

Now, digital download services do not have the retail store overhead, but they do have hardware and technical services overhead. So you basically get hosed on these deals too.

With programs out there like Audio Hijack, one can go to a site with streaming, non-downloadable MP3s, Quicktime files, etc, and rip the audio from that site. This is a killer. Now records are 100% free. I don't think that people that do this are killing the industry, but that is one less dollar in an artists pocket. Take that times 1000 and it means the difference in paying bills.

I really do see both sides. Just trying to round out the perspective from the artists side.

[greenchili]

LoL you said I'm proving your point, yet you just pretty much confirmed mine.

Aren't we a silly pair...

I know what your saying. It's hard to do things within the confines of the system. I say the confines need to be either redefined, ignored, or something in order for the problem to be fixed.

I also say you cannot really blame the consumer. I've yet to see somebody call me a fool for getting something at a good price. But I have seen people call me one for allowing someone to get the upperhand on me and any type of deal (verbal or otherwise).

Somehow though I feel the topic got slightly off track.

Now off to work...

[charl]

Gee, obviously NO artist ever made ANY money in those 6000 or so years music existed before the advent of recording. How did they ever survive as musicians?




Oh yeah. Performing.

Music will survive this new phase of piracy quite nicely. The music industry perhaps less so. It's probably safe to consider it a soon-to-be relic of the 20th century.


Part of the reason the law of supply and demand is no longer working is that we are not simply a supply and demand society, but a credit based one. Prices are inflated far beyond what the market will bear, yet people will put themselves into debt purchasing items for astronomical prices. This is a bubble and it will collapse.
I think that what is happening in the music industry is the beginning of the backlash. It was getting more and more difficult to afford music (and especially to justify the price it cost for the mediocre quality) when the file sharing phenomenon occured. This is a natural and needed development in economics. It sucks for the artists, but then the industrial revolution was pretty sucky for many people too.