CMCentral's TOP TEN for 2003 - Petra in twice

[TexMetal4JC]

I have problems with 12 Stones, Evanescence, even POD (which some may remember I am a big fan/defender of), when they say, "We're JUST Christians in a band, not a Christian band."

I understand the logic, although I do not subscribe to it. However, it seems to be used increasingly as a copout to avoid mentioning Christ while still sounding esoteric and deep enough to be "spiritual." I've always felt that if one has a committed, personal relationship with the man who saved him from death, that relationship would come out - both in lifestyle and lyrics. Some of these bands do not do so. In which case they shouldn't be marketed as Christian.

But that's not the band's fault (usually). However, CCM Magazine certainly serves as a sort of gatekeeper. I don't have a beef with U2, which has been upfront that it chose success before any kind of spiritual message. Bono had that choice early in his career, and he made it. That's fine. Bt it doesn't absolve CCM Mag.

I have no problems with "CCM" as an abbreviation for the Christian music scene, whether it be on Christian labels, secular labels or indie labels. But the "industry," which really is nothing more than a bunch of Christian imprints of the gigantic RIAA companies, has come a long way down from where it was when its mainstays were Petra, Whiteheart, REZ and DeGarmo and Key...

That's all for now. I hope that clarified my points a little.

[Mountain Man]

The whole "we're just Christians in a band" defense seems to be bandied about groups that don't want to take a popularity hit for being associated with Christianity, and I think it is very disingenious of them. I'm reminded of the verse where Jesus says something like, "If you are ashamed of me then I will be ashamed of you."

[MJanke]

The whole "we're just Christians in a band" defense seems to be bandied about groups that don't want to take a popularity hit for being associated with Christianity, and I think it is very disingenious of them. I'm reminded of the verse where Jesus says something like, "If you are ashamed of me then I will be ashamed of you."

Hmmm...

I wonder. Since when is calling ones self a "Christian band" in any way shape or form equal to an authentic and vibrant faith in Christ?

Must I call myself a Christian writer; if I say I'm a writer does that mean I'm ashamed of Christ?

Are teachers ashamed of Christ if they don't say they're Christian teachers and teach in Christian schools?

We do our faith a great disservice when we sit here and make rules that have absolutely no basis in Scripture. Read the verse you quoted. It says "if you are ashamed of ME" not "if you are ashamed of the label 'Christian band'."

Perhaps we should put ourselves in the shoes of the artist for a moment. Realize that there may well be baggage that goes along with the label "Christian band" that is actually prohibitive to the very ministry for Christ that you so want them to accomplish.

How many of us here would pick up a Contemporary Morman Music album? Zero.

So why should a non-Christian kid get excited about P.O.D. when they have absolutely no interest in Jesus right now? POD is an awesome band who's members are totally sold out for Jesus. Anyone who follows the band closely knows this is undeniable. And there are tens of thousands of kids who now have POD's records and go to POD concerts because they did not have that label to initially throw them off.

Methinks God could give a rip how POD categorizes their music. Methinks God knows the hearts of the guys in the band and realizes that their faith is genuine, as is their heart for lost kids. And that's all that matters.

Times are different. I love Petra. But Petra's methods are not set in stone and kids today are different than they were in 1988 or whenever. What worked for Petra is not necessarily what is going to work for Lifehouse or POD or Stacie Orrico.

God knows their hearts and ultimately these artists are responsible to Him. We are not Him. Do not sit here and judge them for not living up to standards that have no basis in the Bible.

Mike

[theTRu]

How many of us here would pick up a Contemporary Morman Music album? Zero.

you should consider "Old Enough to Go" by Abrel and His Merry Wives...

very solid CD...

peace...
love...
bdg...


(a Christian who writes)

[LexingtonPethead]

I suppose a band must ultimately decide what kind of witness or ministry they are striving for.

If they simply want to provide sanitized rock for kids to listen to with no direct reference to Christ... there's nothing inherently wrong with that. They are merely Christians working in the entertainment industry who want to provide a positive message in a neutral sort of way. I am not going to be critical of this. Hey, I have both Lifehouse CDs and a few others from bands just like them. Kids are a certainly a lot better off listening to these guys than most of the stuff out there.

But I will point out, there is no eternal value with the music they are creating. Listening to it is not going to win anyone to Christ or bring spiritual growth.

Personally, I consider bands like Petra - who lay it all on the line in favor of ministry and see untold thousands come to know Jesus - to be of much higher caliber than the former. When given the choice, I will always throw my support to ministry over entertainment. Not to mention ministry is almost always what I'm throwing into my CD player.

[separateunion]

J.R.R. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were Christians. Did The Lord Of The Rings or The Chronicles of Narnia have any references to God or Jesus in them? Were they inherently "Christian"? You don't dismiss those books or there others as any less caliber than, say, the writings of Max Lucado or Frank Peretti, do you?

[LexingtonPethead]

Did I say I dismissed anything? Nooooooo. What I said was, while I still buy and listen to non-Christian music at times, I am much more likely to buy and listen to music with valid ministry going on. To me, it's better to spend my time and money on something that will make an eternal impact. That's NOT to say that spending time on the other is bad - just temporal... while the other is eternal.

[Mountain Man]

I wonder. Since when is calling ones self a "Christian band" in any way shape or form equal to an authentic and vibrant faith in Christ?

I'm talking about those bands that happen to get a crossover hit then start actively distancing themselves from Christianity. "Christian band? Who, us? Oh, no no no. We're just, uh, Christians who happen to be in a band! Yeah, that's it! Please buy our albums."

[MJanke]

I am much more likely to buy and listen to music with valid ministry going on. To me, it's better to spend my time and money on something that will make an eternal impact. That's NOT to say that spending time on the other is bad - just temporal... while the other is eternal.

The mistake is to equate lyrics that mention Jesus with ministry - and an album that reflects life from a Christian perspective w/ non ministry, or less of a ministry.

None of is is in these bands. None of us knows what the band does every day. I have heard countless - that's a lot - of stories about these supposedly non-ministry bands touching lives. We don't see their one-on-one interaction with kids. We don't see how people who work the arenas, who are part of the crew, who tour with the non-Christian bands that they are with - we don't see the impact made on these lives.

In short, we don't see anything. Because we are not in the band and we are not God. All we see is the liner notes in the album and maybe an interview or two - and we want to sit here and judge their lives and their ministry on that? Really? Walk in their shoes, see all of the day-to-day contact that they make with the lost, and THEN talk to me.

When we say that there is no eternal impact there we are putting ourselves in God's place. We are playing God when we say there is no "valid ministry" there. We are judging something that we are completely unqualified for. And we are ignoring the countless testimonies of lives changed - for Jesus - through the lives and testimonies of these supposedly-temporal-focused bands.

[MJanke]

I wonder. Since when is calling ones self a "Christian band" in any way shape or form equal to an authentic and vibrant faith in Christ?

I'm talking about those bands that happen to get a crossover hit then start actively distancing themselves from Christianity. "Christian band? Who, us? Oh, no no no. We're just, uh, Christians who happen to be in a band! Yeah, that's it! Please buy our albums."

So what?

Who cares if they want to call themselves a Christian band?

Is it really imporant, in the immortal scheme of things?

And if they reach one more kid for Christ, who picked up the CD because it DIDN'T have that label/stigma attached to it, are you going to tell me it wasn't worth it to discard a label that is, ultimately, meaningless?

[MJanke]

But I will point out, there is no eternal value with the music they are creating. Listening to it is not going to win anyone to Christ or bring spiritual growth.

And I will respectfully point out that what you said there is simply not true. Do you know that Lifehouse leads worship at their church in California, and that "Hanging By A Moment" was initially a worship song that they wrote for their youth? And that there are tons of churches across the country that now also use that song in worship?

Not to mention plenty of other songs by Lifehouse, POD, 12 Stones, and plenty of other bands in their situation.

We need to stop for a second and expand our worldview. All truth is God's truth, and truth is eternal. The Christian life is about more than evangelism. It is also about more than art which happens to contain the name "Jesus." The Christian life is also about... life. God is honored - indeed, we worship him through - all of our lives. Everything we do can and does bring glory to him, whether it be reading, playing, hiking, painting, having a family, working, or being in love. We can worship God through all of this. Thus, it all has eternal value.

Do you realize that the book of Esther never mentions God one time? Yet it is in the Bible. The Song of Solomon focuses on love.

Music can be the same way. A song, or an album, does not have to be specifically ABOUT God to glorify God. It doesn't have to contain the name of Jesus to have eternal value. And the ministry of a band should not be measured by the amount of certain words in their liner notes. Their lives are what ultimately matter. A Christian math teacher may not mention God one time during the day at school, but he can have a powerful ministry to his kids by the way he treats them with love and respect and dignity - by the way he demonstrates the love of Christ in their lives.

[LexingtonPethead]

Chill out, Janke. I think you've misunderstood that no one here is judging anyone's personal lives or what these bands do other than what they record on the CDs we buy.

First, I was NOT commenting about what Lifehouse or any other like band does in concert, when they are at home attending worship, or even about what they do in their personal lives.

Second, don't go putting words in my mouth. If I choose to comment on these other things and end up passing undue judgement, let me be the one to do that.

I do agree with you that we do not see what goes on in the private lives of each band member, both on and off the stage. But this really had nothing to do with my previous statements.

My point had to do with what we do see and hear with the CD itself, the music, the CD booklet, and anything else that the jewel case contains.

We all have a right to listen to what we want and to form our opinions about what we hear. That's not being judgemental. If it is, then every Pethead in this place is a judge!! I think we all can agree that there are bands who are overtly Christian and bands who are not.

If a band only indirectly refers to Christianity in a way that you have to read the lyrics and decipher them in order to ultimately GUESS whether they are talking about Jesus or not - to me and probably to a lot of other people, THAT's not really ministry. How could it be?

And I think you are stretching your eternal truth comment a bit too far. When I spoke of making an eternal impact, the context was making an eternal impact on the lives of others. I'm talking about a band (like Petra) taking a stand for Christ and really ministering to people through the music on their CDs.

Think about it... it may be true that I shave almost every morning. That truth may be true in the present tense and past tense after I die. That makes it eternal. True, I can worship Him as I shave, but that isn't going to have an eternal impact on someone else, which was my point to begin with. The eternal impact I'm referring to is winning a soul to Christ or strengthening someone's relationship with Christ.

So as far as music goes, as much as I enjoy Lifehouse and some of their peer bands, I don't find much in the way of ministry, at least not for me. Having to guess as to whether the song is about a girl or about God does not minister to me. If ministry happens on stage or in their home church instead of in the CD, then great. I'm glad to know that.

One last thing... I think as Christians, we are all called to make personal decisions that are really "judgement" calls. You do it, for example, when you decide where to attend church. When you attend one church over another, you are indirectly saying that for you, church A has more effective ministry than church B. That in itself is judging.

The same goes for music. If you think for some reason that Petra and Lifehouse are on the same plane where music ministry is concerned, then I might suggest you give those Petra CDs another spin.

[MJanke]

Chill out, Janke. I think you've misunderstood that no one here is judging anyone's personal lives or what these bands do other than what they record on the CDs we buy.

First, I was NOT commenting about what Lifehouse or any other like band does in concert, when they are at home attending worship, or even about what they do in their personal lives.

My point had to do with what we do see and hear with the CD itself, the music, the CD booklet, and anything else that the jewel case contains.

If a band only indirectly refers to Christianity in a way that you have to read the lyrics and decipher them in order to ultimately GUESS whether they are talking about Jesus or not - to me and probably to a lot of other people, THAT's not really ministry. How could it be?

And THAT is what I am taking issue with. My point is that ministry encompasses ALL of the things I was talking about, which is why I brought it all up in the first place.

If you want to sit here and define ministry by what you find in a jewel case, then so be it. But that is not a valid way to judge the ministry of a band, in my opinion. When you say something like the following:

The same goes for music. If you think for some reason that Petra and Lifehouse are on the same plane where music ministry is concerned, then I might suggest you give those Petra CDs another spin.

you are playing God. You are putting youself in his shoes and making judgements about eternal matters which you have no accurate perspective on.

If you want to hold Petra in higher esteem because of the way that they go about doing things, that is fine. You have that right. But I have the same right to point out that statements like the above are, I believe, short-sighted. They encompass a perspective on the Christian life, and Christian ministry, that places human boundaries and rules on things which humans have no right to do. God sees the whole picture.

You cannot define or judge the ministry of a band based soely on their lyrics sheet. That's like me judging your life based soely on what you write on this message board. Neither is fair because neither presents a true picture of who is being examined. You can't pick and choose criteria like that - essentially you are redefining what ministry is and that is not something that God gave you the power to do.

And I think you are stretching your eternal truth comment a bit too far. When I spoke of making an eternal impact, the context was making an eternal impact on the lives of others. I'm talking about a band (like Petra) taking a stand for Christ and really ministering to people through the music on their CDs.

And making an eternal impact on the lives of others is exactly what these other bands are doing. Whether their method differs from Petra's - direct approach through lyrics on albums or personal relationships formed with kids who listen to their music - is irrelevant. In the end the result is the same. Do not disqualify it because their method doesn't fit your idea of what is "music ministry" is. POD takes stands for Christ that Petra never did - not because Petra is lesser somehow (again, I love Petra) but because Petra was a different kind of band in different situations. Both were used by God for his purposes - it is not right to demean either.

[Mountain Man]

Who cares if they want to call themselves a Christian band?

Is it really imporant, in the immortal scheme of things?

You're misunderstanding the fundamental problem I have with their actions. This is not a simple semantic nitpick. I could care less if someone calls themselves a Christian band or a band of Christians. I'm talking specifically about those groups that try to put as much distance between Christianity and themselves. The ones that see boldly proclaiming Christ as a hinderance to their success. The ones that say absolutely nothing about their faith in their concerts or interviews, who go out of their way to avoid such discussions. It's not just the matter of calling themselves "Christians that happen to be in a band" but all the philosophical baggage that comes with it.

And if they reach one more kid for Christ, who picked up the CD because it DIDN'T have that label/stigma attached to it, are you going to tell me it wasn't worth it to discard a label that is, ultimately, meaningless?

That's just it, I don't consider calling yourself a Christian to be a meaningless label. If this is your belief then maybe you need to think long and hard about just what it means to call yourself a Christian.

[LexingtonPethead]

And THAT is what I am taking issue with. My point is that ministry encompasses ALL of the things I was talking about, which is why I brought it all up in the first place.

This is exactly where your argument is flawed. You've talked about how we can personally honor God through all the trivial things we may do, and that's all well and good, but those activities by themselves or as a whole do not share the gospel of Christ to others.

The VAST MAJORITY of people who hear the music of Lifehouse and their peerbands will do so by listening to their CDs, and that was my point in the first place... most of those CDs are clean and sanitized, but they do not stand on their own where ministry is concerned.

you are playing God. You are putting youself in his shoes and making judgements about eternal matters which you have no accurate perspective on.

Excuse me, who is playing God and passing judgement? Did you somehow skip the part where I said:

If ministry happens on stage or in their home church instead of in the CD, then great. I'm glad to know that.

You see, I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that Lifehouse and all the others can be used by God in other ways... either through their local churches or by nurturing relationships with lost kids. I just think it's a shame that they don't do it through the music they record, because they could be so much more effective and reach so many more people if they did.

Yes... I do hold Petra in higher esteem because of all the ministry they have done and continue to do. And there is nothing shortsighted about that. Do you not think that Petra is involved in worship at their local churches, or that they work with youth or develop relationships with those who are lost? Of course they do. Plus, they minister evangelize the lost and edify the body of Christ through their CDs. It is shortsighted of you to not acknowledge these differences.

They encompass a perspective on the Christian life, and Christian ministry, that places human boundaries and rules on things which humans have no right to do. God sees the whole picture.

You're putting words in my mouth again. I never said nor implied that God can't work in various ways. I even gave credit to Lifehouse for leading worship, etc... If that's what they're doing, praise God! Maybe we will see some of it filter into their CDs when they go back to the studio.

You cannot define or judge the ministry of a band based soely on their lyrics sheet. That's like me judging your life based soely on what you write on this message board. Neither is fair because neither presents a true picture of who is being examined. You can't pick and choose criteria like that - essentially you are redefining what ministry is and that is not something that God gave you the power to do.

Here we go again. I am not redefining anyone's ministry. I stated an obvious fact regarding the content of the CDs they record. Plus, I've stated that I'm glad to hear that they are ministering in other ways. For someone so quick to accuse others of judging, you seem to be doing plenty of it yourself.

And making an eternal impact on the lives of others is exactly what these other bands are doing. Whether their method differs from Petra's - direct approach through lyrics on albums or personal relationships formed with kids who listen to their music - is irrelevant. In the end the result is the same.

I couldn't disagree with you more on this point. The result is most definitely NOT the same. Most people who listen to bands like Lifehouse will never meet them face to face to form these "relationships" you are talking about. Just how do you think they plan on doing that? It certainly hasn't been through the music they sell. I bet that most people who listen to Lifehouse do not even know they're Christians!!

I still stand by my statements that these bands simply do not do much for the cause of Christ with the music they are putting out. There's nothing wrong with listening to them - but bands like Petra who are sold out to Jesus right down to the very music they record, in my opinion, will get the larger reward in Heaven.