What are your thoughts on suicide?

[St_Augustines_Pears]

Do you think that people who commit suicide are condemned to hell? Unless I'm missing something, the bible is unclear on this subject.

I was raised Catholic as a child, and the Catholic church declares that if a person commits suicide, it is an unpardonable sin, and therefore, that person will not enter heaven. I got saved on September 3, 1999, but the "old Catholic" in me still makes me wonder about this.

Thoughts? Opinions? Please discuss.

[charl]

I wouldn't say the bible is unclear. Either your sins are covered by the blood covering of Christ or you are exposed to your shame on the last day. God has mercy on whom he has mercy. Are you asking more precisely what would become of a believer who commits suicide?

This would only be unclear if the implications of being in Christ are not well thought out. If you are in Christ you have received not only his death but his perfect life on your behalf. The great exchange of the cross is that God reckoned his righteousness to you and your sins to him.
We all die as a result of our sins, directly or indirectly. However death does not sever those who die in Christ from him for they are in Christ in his resurrection and glorification also. When he crushed sin and death he crushed them indefinitely and absolutely for all who belong to him. Those in Christ belong to one who stands as our High Priest by the power of an indestructible life-a life that we have been brought into by the mercy of God.

I've always felt the unpardonable sin has to do with failing to recognize and revere God, which all unbelievers by their very nature do.

So while believers who commit suicide are in Christ and have his righteousness, unbelievers who commit suicide stand condemned already.

[Shell]

I agree with Charl, sin is covered by the blood of Jesus. I think the unpardonable sin has more to do with rejecting you faith after you've accepted Jesus, something along those lines, but I'm not the leading expert or anything.

It's sad to think that someone would be in so much pain that they feel their only option would be suicide, not to mention the pain for the family members they leave behind. I've never seriously considered suicide or anything, I do believe strongly that nothing is worth that, but I can understand how someone might hurt badly enough to think about it. "For Annie" does a good job of dealing with that issue.

"This too shall pass" and "God will see me through this, I can depend on Him" are good things to keep in mind if you're going through a hard time.

[brent]

The unpardonable sin is actually an ongoing conscious decision not to accept Christ. If one is paid for and willingly adopted by the Father, there is nothing that can remove a believer from the family.

I agree that all sin is covered under the blood of Christ, but the other part of the forgiveness of sin is the admission of guilt and REPENTENCE of that sin. It is hard to repent for suicide.

That said, while the believer may still go to heaven, he or she will not have lived to their fullest, will not have reaped the best, and thus will not have all of the rewards that they could have recieved.

God is performance based. The are degrees of reward in heaven and degrees of punishment in hell. Some will make it to heaven smelling like fire, barely escaping it. Some will be great examples of faithful service.

The real question is: Who wants to go to heaven looking like a quitter? Who wants to leave this earth kicking butt and taking names for the kingdom?

[charl]

Brent-It's been awhile hasn't it. I am sure you know I am about to utterly disagree with pretty much everything you just said.

I have to ask: is repentance a magic formula? In other words does repenting absolve you or did Christ? If so he did this once, long before we were born, never mind our deaths. Our sins were payed for before we committed them and redemption applied to us at the time of faith and repentance.

Such a view is exactly why Rome argued (and I guess still does) that to commit suicide was a mortal sin-since it was unconfessed, the person had not absolved themselves. Yet in scripture sin is covered by God, Salvation worked by God's own right arm. Again he has mercy on whom he has mercy. The only thing we contributed to our salvation was our sin-and so it remains.

As I've quoted here before, Charnock mentioned that our advocate has a much stronger weapon than our sins, that being his infinite merit. Merit reckoned to us when we become children of God. I thank God every day that though we can say he is indeed "performance based", it is Christ's performance that I am judged by rather than my own.

I want to leave earth Glorifying God. Sometimes we do this by evidencing his mercy and grace repeatedly.

[brent]

Brent-It's been awhile hasn't it. I am sure you know I am about to utterly disagree with pretty much everything you just said.

I have to ask: is repentance a magic formula? In other words does repenting absolve you or did Christ? If so he did this once, long before we were born, never mind our deaths. Our sins were payed for before we committed them and redemption applied to us at the time of faith and repentance.

Such a view is exactly why Rome argued (and I guess still does) that to commit suicide was a mortal sin-since it was unconfessed, the person had not absolved themselves. Yet in scripture sin is covered by God, Salvation worked by God's own right arm. Again he has mercy on whom he has mercy. The only thing we contributed to our salvation was our sin-and so it remains.

As I've quoted here before, Charnock mentioned that our advocate has a much stronger weapon than our sins, that being his infinite merit. Merit reckoned to us when we become children of God. I thank God every day that though we can say he is indeed "performance based", it is Christ's performance that I am judged by rather than my own.

I want to leave earth Glorifying God. Sometimes we do this by evidencing his mercy and grace repeatedly.

There is no magic formula. Repent means to turn away from, right? To stop doing what you did and go in the other direction. You can't stop doing what you did if you are dead. Yes, your sins are covered under the blood. And then we also cannot rule out mental illness, etc. God's grace is bigger than us.

Sin prohibits our prayers from being answered, post accepting Christ. Sin isolates us from the fellowship of the church and God, post accepting Christ. Salvation is not a license to sin.

Sin does not mean that we are not saved. Sins of commission or ommission STILL have an affect on us. There are rewards for faithfulness, service, etc. We will not all be same in heaven, just as we are not on earth. We are given a life to be stewards of. We are given a calling. We can invest, we can work it, or we can hide it in the ground. God is performance based when it comes to our life of service, NOT salvation. Salvation is free for all who will believe upon the name of the Lord, not of works.

You guys are looking at this issue on the surface in this hypothetical situation. If a person commits suicide, they must be mentally ill, or under some kind of control/influence, and not a committed follower of Christ that is under His control. They might have had a salvation experience. But, there can be no way that God would inspire a person to sin. It must be that this person isn't listening to God. If they are not listening to God, then asking for God's forgiveness and living for him is not going to matter. They are out of the will of God.

Let's assume that the person is going to "off" themselves, and they ask for forgiveness before hand. How can one truely repent and receive forgiveness for one's sin BEFORE hand, if the intent is to commit it anyway. That is just covering the butt and lying. There is not one scripture in the bible that justifies asking for forgiveness of sin prior to committing the act. It is always after the act that one is (hopefully) convicted, stops practicing that sin and moves on. So, no, I am not supporting the Catholic view of this, be it for a cold blooded killer robbing a store, or a pregnant teen killing a fetus.

I John says:
"And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Reads like it is on-going repenting, on-going forgiveness, on-going cleansing by the blood that was once shed. God is constantly faithful, not WAS faithful to forgive. His forgiveness is on-going, based on the one time offering of His Son.

[charl]

We are no longer slaves to sin, however that doesn't mean we will cease sinning as long as we are in the body-and yes our sin causes suffering and some believer's sins will be more grievous than others but we'll all have sins to persevere through. While I don't disagree that we need to be encouraged to live righteously, some are indeed the smoldering wick and harsh law snuffs them out. Some believers are driven to this very type of sin by that harsh law.

I don't get and will never get the punishment/reward system people have. I just don't. If you are regarded with the perfection of Christ, how are you going to improve on that? What is going to be better than union with Christ, the adoption as a child of God? This system has always confounded me.

I also have never cared for the interpretation of John which insists on confession for absolution. It doesn't agree with what John says elsewhere and while he is exhorting his congregations to holiness, I think he is arguing that those who insist they are not sinners for the things they do in the body are liars, and the only way to be cleansed is to admit one was dirty to begin with.

I do not agree that someone who commits suicide must be unsaved or mentally ill, or even a "weak christian" (for lack of a better term though I loathe it). What I am saying is that for the one in Christ, even this sin does not change their standing before God. I don't think I can stress too much that we are in the Israel of God-In Christ. Our sin is not greater than his perfection. If he has paid for our sins and given us his life, then this transaction is so. We have been reconciled to God in Christ. No one and nothing can take us from his hand, including our deeds.

We can never wholly be out of the will of God. Even the trials of our sins are trials he has allowed us to face.

I am a little mystified by the whole "confession before sinning" argument since as mentioned I don't accept the premise that confession is the means of absolution-be it before or after committing sin. And if you don't well fine. Again Christ is the means of absolution and if we have been declared righteous, then we are seen by God dressed in that righteousness. Should we commit sins later in our lives we know that as we are in Christ those too are covered. Indeed God's grace is given to his children new every day and it is never conditioned on what we do, but the unchanging nature of God.

Should a person die by their own hand or by any other means, they still die as a result of sin, so I see less difference than others might. But Christ is the Archvictor over death and has robbed it of it's power. This is the point to be made.

[brent]

1. So, what kind of person commits suicide then, if they are not weak "Christians", ill or under some control other than God's? Just because you do not believe it does not make it so. The bible is clear. We are not to give our minds over to anything! We are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. A quitter, a murderer, a thief, etc (that is what this suicidal person is) is not renewing his/her mind. They are under the control of stimuli outside of the scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

2. Why not believe in the rewards of heaven and degrees of punishement in hell? Jesus mentions it himself. Read Luke 12. Revelation mentions it as well. We are told how to add years to our life by loving and honoring our parents. We are told about the many crowns that may be won. II Cor 5 tells us that we will all stand before Christ and answer for ALL things both good and bad. II Cor 3 tell us that we will account for our labors. Rev 22 mentions rewards according to our work.

[charl]

They are sinners saved by grace. Clothed in Christ and partakers in his death, resurrection and glorification. As I am. We are all united to him in his death and his resurrection. The bible is indeed clear. There are no degrees of perfection and this is what God demands. Christ's actions on our behalf are the focus, his success (so to speak) rather than our failings.

Don't forget God disciplines his sons even with their sins.

The goal of the Christian life is union with Christ. I've never been able to comprehend how that can be topped in any way. And we obtain Christ's perfection. How do we improve on perfection with our filthy rags? How do you one up adoption as a child of God? What could possibly make this "better" so that it would matter a lick to me that I didn't have that reward, oh darn all I ended up with was union with Christ? I mean really I'm WITH JESUS. Why would care about anything that is not JESUS? This is no motivation for me, I am going to be with Jesus either way. So I'll be with Jesus without a crown. Wow. I'll still be WITH JESUS!

Basically.

[calicowriter]

Do you think that people who commit suicide are condemned to hell? Unless I'm missing something, the bible is unclear on this subject.

I was raised Catholic as a child, and the Catholic church declares that if a person commits suicide, it is an unpardonable sin, and therefore, that person will not enter heaven. I got saved on September 3, 1999, but the "old Catholic" in me still makes me wonder about this.

Thoughts? Opinions? Please discuss.

FYI, this is what the Catholic Church teaches about suicide:

Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.



This teaching was not always the case however. Before the new catechism was written, the teaching was that committing suidice was a mortal sin and would send you to hell. You could also not have a Catholic funeral or be buried in a Catholic cemetery.

I think the current teaching is more in line with the Bible and with the provision of God's Grace. Even when the harsher teaching was in effect when I was young, there were many priests who would go ahead and do Catholic funerals. Their logic (which I believe to be correct) is that we cannot know what goes through someone's mind in their last moments. Who's to say in some instances that they regret what they have done, but do so when it is too late to save the body (i.e. overdose). There have also been cases where people have overdosed for attention, hoping to be found in time. And of course, there is accidental overdose, which can be hard to determine.

All in all, I think we should all worry about working out our own salvations and leave the final decisions to God.

[crossways]

I don't get involved in discussions much on here, and I don't really intend to now.

But I can't help but notice that St. Augustine has not responded back in this thread.

I know that he has had some difficult circumstances in his life - divorce among them.

Forgive me for being forward or presumptious, but I would feel better if St. A would respond back.

I always tense up when someone asks questions like these, because many questions are actually statements. I work with students and one sign that they may be contemplating suicide is asking these types of questions.

So St. A - if I am totally off base, then I apologize and I am glad you are ok.

But please respond....

praying til then!
Jason

[Shell]

Thanks for bringing up that concern, Jason, it is a valid one. I'm concerned too, let us know how you're doing. We're just hoping you're okay.

[Rocksoup]

my thoughts on it.... people should try not to commit it.

[charl]

Their logic (which I believe to be correct) is that we cannot know what goes through someone's mind in their last moments. Who's to say in some instances that they regret what they have done, but do so when it is too late to save the body (i.e. overdose).

Yeah presumption. As far as I'm concerned the person's state of mind is irrelevant. What Christ has done is what matters.

In regards to a person contemplating suicide, I may not have the best of answers but I would say Christ came to give us life. He took all our afflictions in his body and crushed them that we may reckon them dead. We can say it is not I who live but Christ lives in me. To suffer is part of being in Christ, as he suffered, but also to know that he well understands your affliction and wanderings because he made them his own.
My favorite passage in regards to this has long been lament 3-always in the midst of death Christ brings life. Because of the Lord's great love we are not consumed.

Richard Sibbes said this:

A Christian is an impregnable person. He is a person that never can be conquered. Emmanuel became man to make the church and every Christian to be one with him. Christ's nature is out of danger of all that is hurtful. The sun shall not shine, the wind shall not blow, to the church's hurt. For the church's Head ruleth over all things and hath all things in subjection.

This is not hollow triumphalism, but fact. While we were in the depths of the pit, his tears reached us and the LORD saw. He came near into death and redeemed our lives.

[brent]

Christ died so that we may have life and life more abundantly. We are to live like we are his, and not like the world. The world and our sin nature would have us kill with our hearts, minds and hands.

Jesus died for our sins, does that give license to practice sin? No. Does that make us perfect now? No. Do we not still have a sin nature now? Yes.

The heart and state of mind of the person have everything to do with this, because it either controls the spirit, or the spirit controls it. God desires us to live HIS way, to show that we love him by our actions. We will be rewarded by our actions with blessings now and or later, reaping what we have sown.

Practicing and perfecting sin, in this case suicide, is bearing a false witness to God and to the world. It is stealing life from friends and family. It is a stumbling block. It elevating one's self to the place of God, saying who should and should not live and why, based on a perspective, feelings, emotions and not on God's word, which is what all things should be decided by.

I don't care what MAN says. God wrote with his finger in stone, "Thou shalt not kill." That does it for me. So it seems stupid to me to debate whether or not it is ok to do something that displeases God, and wonder how it affects US in the end. What about God? We don't think about how it affects God.

Let me ask you guys this? How many people think about suicide when their life is healthy? How many think about killing themselves because they can't take living in love, living with Christ, living in health, living in luxury, etc? It is circumstancial. People only want off of the planet when they are out of control, out of their mind and out of options. Not when things are perfect. Where in God's salvation is there any room for living like this? When is it ok to live based on what we see, what we hear and what we perceive to be unacceptable conditions?