Ray Boltz GAY?

[executioner]

God made no one that way, they choose to be that way and it is sinful; The devil has a hold of Ray now, but hopefully with prayer and support maybe his desires will change.

I actually don't believe that it is a choice for most homosexuals as far as "orientation" is concerned.

I don't mean to sound stupid or naive but what exactly do you mean?

[brent]

It cannot be something physically inherited. There is no gay gene in the map.

This is a spiritual matter. This is a sin, which means it is a learned behavior, just as lying, stealing, cursing, etc are learned behaviors.

If a person has no choice, then they have no free will to choose not to sin, or free will to honor God, making his commands to not lay with a person of the same sex, his objections to it, and the curses for it meaningless.

What about beastiality? The command not to have sex with animals is in the same address as the homosexual command. Are you going to tell me that a gal who performs oral gratification on a horse or a shepard getting it on with a sheep has no choice either? Please. Where does it stop? Then we can say murders have no choice, liars have no choice....get it?

This is the work of Satan, bluring human rationalizing with God's word. God made us. I think he knows more about what is possible and what is not, what is for us and what is not than any activist group or group of people that want to queer each other (as my friend Travis's father would say. He was 100% country!).

[separateunion]

It cannot be something physically inherited. There is no gay gene in the map.

This is a spiritual matter. This is a sin, which means it is a learned behavior, just as lying, stealing, cursing, etc are learned behaviors.

You don't believe in original sin brent?

Brent sort of made my point. While I don't believe sin is learned in the sense that a baby is born perfect and learns to sin, I believe having a homosexual orientation (not homosexual behavior) is part of sin nature just like lying, stealing and cheating. Human nature is fallen, therefore it is imperfect.

You may not be a liar, but you are definitely tempted to do so. You may not have relations with a girl you see walking down the street, but you are definitely tempted to do so. Not to imply that everytime a sinful opportunity presents itself you are tempted to do so, but it happens to even the best of us at least sometimes. This imperfection is not only relegated to the spiritual, but it affects the physical as well. That's why we have babies born with downs syndrome or autism. Homosexuality is no different. It is an imperfection in human nature.

As far as the biology of it is concerned, no, there is no homosexuality gene or chromosome. But there is no chromosome for murders or rapists either. In my experience, I've noticed that certain people are predisposed to certain sinful natures more than others. This has nothing to do with a gene or a chromosome, but other biological factors do play in. For homosexuals, it could be that they are born with less testosterone and more progesterone than normal males. That's just one example. There are many biological explanations that have nothing to do with what chromosomes you are born with.

This doesn't mean that I think that homosexuals don't have a choice in how they act upon their sinful nature. The Bible clearly states that the act of homosexuality is wrong. So, while it may be tough to be attracted to members of the same gender and know that you shouldn't engage in that sort of activity, God calls us to not act on that imperfect nature.

[separateunion]

I hope I'm making it clear that I believe the act of homosexuality (behavior) is a choice, and therefore sinning if one partakes in the act, and the attraction to the same gender (orientation) is not always a choice.

[brent]

Yes, the bible says that we inhereted sin natures. But what you implied is that people do not have a choice but to give in. That is what Boltz said. He has a choice. He would rather give in to sin and say that it is God's fault. Priceless. "Well God, you MADE me like breasts, so I am just gonne gawk at everyone I can! Sweet!" I like ladies, the way a male should by design. Now, it is up to me to choose my actions for executing my plans to get one. I can follow the naughty ways outside of marraige, or I can do it the right way.

Homosexuality breaks three rules. God says don't do it. Marraige is for one man and one woman. Sex outside of marraige is a no no. Gays can choose to do what they want, or obey God. This much different than the other sins.

The body itself is witness to gay life being wrong. HIV, Aids, window cancers/sores, etc, etc.

[separateunion]

Yes, the bible says that we inhereted sin natures. But what you implied is that people do not have a choice but to give in. That is what Boltz said. He has a choice. He would rather give in to sin and say that it is God's fault. Priceless. "Well God, you MADE me like breasts, so I am just gonne gawk at everyone I can! Sweet!" I like ladies, the way a male should by design. Now, it is up to me to choose my actions for executing my plans to get one. I can follow the naughty ways outside of marraige, or I can do it the right way.

Homosexuality breaks three rules. God says don't do it. Marraige is for one man and one woman. chess outside of marraige is a no no. Gays can choose to do what they want, or obey God. This much different than the other sins.

The body itself is witness to gay life being wrong. HIV, Aids, window cancers/sores, etc, etc.

You've completely missed my point. I am differentiating between orientation and behavior and saying that behavior is sinful while orientation is not necessarily a choice. Using your example of "ZOMG! Breasts, me likey!", the same goes for homosexuals. While they may not make the choice to like looking at members of the same gender, they do have a choice in whether or not they do look at them in a lustful manner or even engage in any sinful activity with them. There is choice in action, but there is not necessarily choice in orientation.

[epdc]

I believe this is a very complicated topic. No one here will be able to talk about homosexuality 100% because no one has gone throughthat.

Dont get me wrong, I believe that homosexuality is sin and all but my point is, I have met people that says they have been like that since they were kids, I have heard people that have talked to me and said "ya know what?, I tried, I started to go to church, to go to counseling and all but I can´t help it, I´m not attracted to women at all, I tried to change because the Bible says is sin but I can´t I mean, I asked God for it and all but I´m still attracted to men".

Every case is different and I´m sure all of them are complicated, I truly believe in my heart there´s a reason for them to be gay and once that reason is fixed the problem could be cure slowly....


What is my opinion?, That the only person that can judge is God and it is not my problem, all I can do is pray for that people and leave it to God....

[notunderground]

separateunion,

How do you know that gay "orientation" really exists?

[brent]

This has been a topic of discussion on another secular audio thread.

A guy walks into a studio and says to everyone, "Hey, I am gay." They say, "Ok, leave."

Now we were being baited. But an interesting confrontational conversation occured as a result.

My points to them were the same here.
1. Evolution. If you gays believe in evolution, detail for me just how two living organisms/beings of the same sex can exist, realize that they are attracted to the same sex, and then reproduce other homosexual beings?
2. Since there is NO GAY GENE, how is your gayness given to you at birth?
3. If it is natural and orderly for you to have sex with one another, then why does having homosexual sex ALWAYS lead to HIV/AIDS, an increased risk (higher than the hetro population) of prostate cancer, window sores, depression, addiction, mental and physical abuse of a lover, etc?
4. Why does a personal preference = entitlements?
5. Why does your problem have to be accepted by me?
6. If homosexuality is normal, why is there shame associated with it?[/url]

[Shell]

Brent's points might be a little easier to follow if the filter didn't keep changing s-e-x to chess. Sheesh.

[brent]

Brent's points might be a little easier to follow if the filter didn't keep changing s-e-x to chess. Sheesh.

lolololol, hahahahaha

It turned a-null into window. Boy.

[separateunion]

separateunion,

How do you know that gay "orientation" really exists?

Because human nature is fallen.
Because I've studied biology.
Because during my life I have been friends with homosexuals, and I believe them when they tell me they don't choose to be attracted to men.

[brent]

separateunion,

How do you know that gay "orientation" really exists?

Because human nature is fallen.
Because I've studied biology.
Because during my life I have been friends with homosexuals, and I believe them when they tell me they don't choose to be attracted to men.

There is no biological support for homosexuality being genetic. In fact, there is proof that it is not. There is more proof of it being environmentally influenced. Until some homosexual doctors had influence in 1973, homosexuality was considered a mental disorder by the medical profession.

A drug addict will tell you they have no choice too. It is a learned behavior, forced upon them by abuse of a sexual nature (most of the time statistics say) or picked up because of relationships with a parent.

[separateunion]

Evolution. If you gays believe in evolution, detail for me just how two living organisms/beings of the same chess can exist, realize that they are attracted to the same chess, and then reproduce other homosexual beings?

I don't think reproduction has anything to do with this argument.

Once you grasp that human nature is fallen and all kinds of human reprobation is in play, it is much easier to accept that homosexuals don't always choose orientation.

2. Since there is NO GAY GENE, how is your gayness given to you at birth?

It's not only about genes. Is there a straight gene? Much more comes into play biologically than simply what genes you are born with.

3. If it is natural and orderly for you to have chess with one another, then why does having homosexual chess ALWAYS lead to HIV/AIDS, an increased risk (higher than the hetro population) of prostate cancer, window sores, depression, addiction, mental and physical abuse of a lover, etc?

Homosexual sex does NOT always end in HIV/AIDS. Is there an increased chance? Yes, but this still has nothing to do with orientation. The choice to have homosexual relations is wrong, but that's not what I'm discussing.

On a side note, it is interesting that people have been engaged in homosexual relations for nearly the entirety of humanity and it wasn't until the 70s/80s that AIDS became prominent.

4. Why does a personal preference = entitlements?

1) Not a personal preference orientation wise
2) It doesn't and I've never made that argument

5. Why does your problem have to be accepted by me?

Good to know you are willing to have grace with other sinners like Christ has had grace with you. No you don't have to accept the lifestyle, but maybe homosexual sin isn't worse than any other sin and Christians need to recognize that and learn to have some grace.

6. If homosexuality is normal, why is there shame associated with it?

It's not normal. That's the point. It is an abnormality that exists because human nature is fallen. There is shame associated with homosexual relations like there is with every other sin one commits.

[brent]

I argued against their points.

The gay machine says that there is no God. Evolution did all of this.
The gay machine says that it IS genetic, not a chosen lifestyle.
The gay machine says that it IS natural.

For me, the natural and eveloutionary arguments negate one another. You can't evolve without reproducing. Whatever is reproducing must be bisexual at best if they hold to evolution. They must hold to evolution because that is the only way they can escape judgement. Homosexuality is wrong in most of the major religions of the world. The largest ones anyway. They ALL know it is wrong, that is why they all are shameful of it.

Take a virgin male and female, marry them, watch them after 50 years of a monogamous relationship. Take a gay couple. Watch them after 5 years. See who has naturally reaped diseases and mental illness from their relationship and sexual activities. The numbers say that homosexual makes average over 50 partners. They do not settle down for the long term often.