John Schlitt -- San Diego CA

[separateunion]

You are right. We all make mistakes. I guess I use the wrong words when I wrote "All we know". Can a mistake turn out to be a good thing?

God has worked through evil men. He works through anyone He wants. I'm not trying to defend brent because I don't know anything about the group John is performing for, but I do think we need to be more willing to look at what is actually going on rather than immediately defending John because "he is doing God's work". Just because God can work through wrong situations doesn't mean we should just turn a blind eye because our favorite performer is involved.

[brent]

That statement of faith is a basic thing. That is not what he uses to sell books. In 99 he was interviewed and published the news that HIS church was the last church to receive the LAST outpouring of the holy spirit, and that this blessing enabled people to defy the laws of physics. He is a Word-of-Faith nut job!

Man, I could dig more stuff up. You guys should check out CRI's resources where this boob is quoted in his own words, with footnotes and audio resources available. He is well documented in HHs books on counterfeit Christianity.

http://www.equip.org/site/apps/nlnet/co ... 7D&notoc=1

Morris Cerullo

Morris Cerullo claims that he gave up a driving ambition to be the governor of New Jersey in order to become a minister of the gospel.58 He purports to have first met God at the tender age of eight. Since then his life has been one mind-blowing experience after another: he says he was taught by leading rabbis;59 led out of a Jewish orphanage by two angelic beings;60 transported to heaven for a face-to-face meeting with God;61 and told he would be capable of revealing the future.62
On one occasion, Cerullo informed his audience, "You're not looking at Morris Cerullo — you're looking at God. You're looking at Jesus."63 Not only is Cerullo a master of make-believe, he is also a master of manipulation. Claiming that God was directly speaking through him, Cerullo uttered, "Would you surrender your pocketbooks unto Me, saith God, and let me be the Lord of your pocketbooks....Yea, so be thou obedient unto my voice."64

Sue, I know you aren't doing this stuff. This is not an attack.

For you other people out there, the CCM artists on this show are like strippers at a club. They are there to make MC rich.

Gee I am glad I no longer live in Tulsa, which is the hub for many of these idiots that are leading people to hell. Osborne, Roberts, Haggin, George, etc, etc are all nut jobs that live(d) and/or are/were based there.

All of these pieces of horse hockey have money problems, law problems, marital problems, church fellowship problems, shooting off their mouth problems, credit problems. If God is God and is talking straight to them, you would think that God would do a better job at telling them how to live and operate a ministry. Crap. If God is God and talking straight to them, you would think that they would obey the scripture in the bible! You would think that they have the fear of the Lord! But God is not talking to them and people who don't read their bible, or maybe they aren't saved and have the Holy Spirit to enlighten them as they read, are falling for this 1950s side show bananza. They fall for these stupid scams and heresy. If more Christians read their bibles, we would have less churches, smaller churches and more on fire churches. We would not be building concert halls with coffee shops and shopping malls.

[sue d.]

Hmmm.... not very good credentials as a man of God.

OK - let me ask THIS about the TV show itself (and not Cerullo).

Does THAT SHOW do any good? Are people actually HELPED on it? has anyone seen the full program? (I'm seriously asking, not being sarcastic).

I found a link to watch some past episodes:
http://www.helplinetv.com/index.php?opt ... 2&Itemid=4

[brent]

Hmmm.... not very good credentials as a man of God.

OK - let me ask THIS about the TV show itself (and not Cerullo).

Does THAT SHOW do any good? Are people actually HELPED on it? has anyone seen the full program? (I'm seriously asking, not being sarcastic).

I found a link to watch some past episodes:
http://www.helplinetv.com/index.php?opt ... 2&Itemid=4

I have watched the whole thing. First of all it is hard for me to say that someone could not be helped on there. The degree of help has not been defined. So, somebody COULD be helped in SOME way. There is mostly manipulation for money. It is like watching TBN's PTL mostly. Interviews, song and dance, then the poney show.

[separateunion]

I don't understand why we are so quick to say "it's ok to rub shoulders with heretics because people might be helped". Just because God can work through any situation doesn't mean we should willingly go into a wrong situation.

[sue d.]

I'm still undecided on all of this, but what comes to my mind as you say that, SU, is that I'm remembering the words of Paul:

(taken from "The Message," whose translation speaks to this situation quite well):

Even though I am free of the demands and expectations of everyone, I have voluntarily become a servant to any and all in order to reach a wide range of people: religious, nonreligious, meticulous moralists, loose-living immoralists, the defeated, the demoralized—whoever.

I didn't take on their way of life. I kept my bearings in Christ—but I entered their world and tried to experience things from their point of view. I've become just about every sort of servant there is in my attempts to lead those I meet into a God-saved life. I did all this because of the Message. I didn't just want to talk about it; I wanted to be in on it! 1 Cor. 9:19-23

Don't get me wrong - I'm NOT comparing John Schlitt to Paul. No. I'm comparing a Christian's willingness or unwillingness to enter into certain situations, knowing there may be controversy.

[separateunion]

But is John going in knowing there's controversy? Or is he going into this guy's arena and acting like he is a brother in Christ? The difference between Paul and John is that Paul went in and told heretics they were wrong.

[BForm]

Wow! Looks like this is going to keep coming up. I'll say what I said repeatedly in the Schuller thread. God wants us to passionately work to build his kingdom with a message AND METHODS that bring glory to Him. In other words, our methods must show that we are relying on the power of the Holy Spirit and not the wisdom of men. The New Testament writers reserved their harshest language for heretics who distort the person and work of Jesus Christ. When writing about those men we are told to have nothing to do with them and not even give them a greeting. Why such strong language? Because the world, not to mention weaker borthers and sisters, must clearly see the contrast between the truth we believe and the lies these men teach about Christ. When we stand with them as though we are brothers in fellowship with them, we dishonor God, regardless of how many people the Holy Spirit may choose to reach in spite of our foolishness.

Think about Moses and the thirsty Israelites. When Moses struck the rock in anger, I guess you could say his ministry "flourished". The people had their fill of fresh water. Yet Moses dishonored God because he was told to only speak to the rock in this instance and not strike it. The method was dishonoring, yet God chose to bear fruit in spite of Moses. Things didn't work out so well for Moses though.

Now, concerning the Message. Please be careful with these so-called "translations". They go way beyond the text and into the area of interpretation, all the while claiming to be the Word of God. I'm quite sure the text Sue referenced never said all that. The translators were simply adding their own explanation into the text. In spite of how much these translations seem to help in making the scriptures more "devotional". , they are totally inadequate when it comes to discussing serious theological issues.