Jennifer Knapp

[separateunion]

For the record, the Roman Catholic stance on salvation is and has been Jesus + the Catholic church alone = salvation. This is not scriptural.

You're right, it's not scriptural, which is why the Catholic Church doesn't believe that.

Anyone that does not hold to this doctrine is an anathema (cursed).

Wrong.

Your friends may not be Roman Catholics.

While there may be subtle differences due to society and culture, Catholics do not have sects that have vastly different theological stances. When Catholics speak on matters of Catholicism, they are speaking for the whole of of Catholicism. It's not like me speaking on issues of Presbyterianism that a Methodist doesn't agree with.

We point to the reformation and the author who WAS a Catholic.

Yes, because we don't believe that Catholic doctrine is wholly correct. That doesn't meant that Catholicism is a complete perversion of Scripture. It is the basis upon which many of our traditions and beliefs are founded.

We point to the sale of salvation, the doctrine of purgatory, buying people out of purgatory, etc, etc. We point to the fact that they consider the pope to be God on earth.

Except, their true doctrines don't hold this. These are perversions (or misunderstandings by outsiders) of their teachings.

Salvation is a process.

It is. We have been saved, are saved and are currently being saved.

We come to God through the sacraments.

We do. It's...how we commune with God and each other. This is pretty basic stuff.

God gives us grace as we obey him.

He does. That doesn't only mean WHEN we obey him, it means we receive grace as we strive towards Christ, even in our mistakes. That's how salvation works.

Works are integral to justification.

They are. You cannot truly separate faith and works without creating a disconnect. They are each part and parcel of the other.

They have a jacked up view of sanctification, justification and salvation.

If you think that the above statements are incorrect, then you are the one who does not have the correct understanding. These issues aren't nearly as cut and dry as you want them to be.

[separateunion]

Okay, I get the point of that story-But he should have been told, "No, you won't go to hell if you repent and turn to God...And we all have things we need to repent of." That would have been the right answer. We shouldn't hate, we should make it clear God loves them, but we shouldn't let them think homosexuality is acceptable. It's not enough just to say homosexuality is wrong; it needs to be taken to the next step where they are told they can repent and turn from that lifestyle. The right way to deal with sin is to see it for what it is, repent and turn from it, and the church too often doesn't deal with sin correctly. Churches too often either condemn the person completely so that they don't believe anyone (including God) cares or ignore it and don't deal with it. Neither extreme is good.

When someone is struggling with sin, is your first response always, "You need to repent and turn back to God"? I'm thinking no. Some people don't think they are doing anything wrong to begin with, and telling them to repent is going to turn them off to you being a friend to them. Jesus didn't eat dinner with sinners and start bulldozing them to repent. I'm not saying that sinners shouldn't repent, but not everyone knows or is willing to accept that they are sinning. Many of us are struggling with how best to represent Christ, knowing that our friends ARE sinning, but also making sure we maintain those relationships that are so vital to the Great Commission.

[separateunion]

Ok, when I responded to Shell, I was speaking in a general sense and hadn't read the Rich story. I think there is an issue with that story in that Rich went too far in the direction of God's love. Yes, God is love, but he is also judgment. This is why people in the OT feared God, because they understood that. Now, Christ forgives sins, but if you are KNOWINGLY...let me say that again...if you are KNOWINGLY sinning, I don't think God just says, "well, I love you, so that's okay." We have to die to our flesh everyday. Sure, we're still gonna mess up, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to change. The impression that story left me with is that we can just live how we want, and in the end, God will forgive us.

On another note, I'm going to lay out a couple of reasons I disagree with Catholics so people will stop accusing me of being one. Firstly, I take issue with the fact that Catholics don't seem to believe in assurance of salvation, which further leads to a belief that very few people will go to heaven. Another off shoot of this is that sinning without repenting before you die will bar you from eternal salvation. Secondly, I don't believe in purgatory. I know that Catholic doctrine does not teach that people can be bought or prayed out of purgatory, but I still don't agree with the idea of purgatory. I see no scriptural basis for it. Other things I disagree with but also don't think are that big of a deal in the long run are transubstantiation and sacraments beyond baptism and communion. I'm indifferent to the idea of praying to saints. While I don't think it's wrong, I don't see the need either (although, I do kind of like that there are certain saints for certain purposes, i.e. St. Jude being the Patron Saint of Lost Causes).

[Shell]

Good point; it is true that Jesus hung out with the sinners. They're going to have to face the idea that they're sinning eventually if they want to follow Jesus. I do see what you mean though, it probably isn't something you should hit them with right away. So the next questions are, how do you help them get to a point of repentance? How do you find the balancing point where you're not condoning what they do but not condemning them either? Someone has to tell them the truth.

[separateunion]

Good point; it is true that Jesus hung out with the sinners. They're going to have to face the idea that they're sinning eventually if they want to follow Jesus. I do see what you mean though, it probably isn't something you should hit them with right away. So the next questions are, how do you help them get to a point of repentance? How do you find the balancing point where you're not condoning what they do but not condemning them either? Someone has to tell them the truth.

I think you can tell them the truth, but you have to find the point where you are just completely turning them off and stop there. After that, you live the truth and hope that someday they come around enough for you to help them, but that's really up to God. He controls the hardening and softening of hearts.

[brent]

For the record, the Roman Catholic stance on salvation is and has been Jesus + the Catholic church alone = salvation. This is not scriptural.

You're right, it's not scriptural, which is why the Catholic Church doesn't believe that.

Anyone that does not hold to this doctrine is an anathema (cursed).

Wrong.

Your friends may not be Roman Catholics.

While there may be subtle differences due to society and culture, Catholics do not have sects that have vastly different theological stances. When Catholics speak on matters of Catholicism, they are speaking for the whole of of Catholicism. It's not like me speaking on issues of Presbyterianism that a Methodist doesn't agree with.

We point to the reformation and the author who WAS a Catholic.

Yes, because we don't believe that Catholic doctrine is wholly correct. That doesn't meant that Catholicism is a complete perversion of Scripture. It is the basis upon which many of our traditions and beliefs are founded.

We point to the sale of salvation, the doctrine of purgatory, buying people out of purgatory, etc, etc. We point to the fact that they consider the pope to be God on earth.

Except, their true doctrines don't hold this. These are perversions (or misunderstandings by outsiders) of their teachings.

Salvation is a process.

It is. We have been saved, are saved and are currently being saved.

We come to God through the sacraments.

We do. It's...how we commune with God and each other. This is pretty basic stuff.

God gives us grace as we obey him.

He does. That doesn't only mean WHEN we obey him, it means we receive grace as we strive towards Christ, even in our mistakes. That's how salvation works.

Works are integral to justification.

They are. You cannot truly separate faith and works without creating a disconnect. They are each part and parcel of the other.

They have a jacked up view of sanctification, justification and salvation.

If you think that the above statements are incorrect, then you are the one who does not have the correct understanding. These issues aren't nearly as cut and dry as you want them to be.

You are incorrect on most of this. Ever hear of the Council of Trent which has never been rescinded? I will scan some docs and email them to you. The Roman Catholic church does in fact teach what I laid out.

Works is NOT integral to justification. Sorry. Not in scripture. Grace is not tied to works either. Not in scripture. The Catholics tie works to salvation. Not in scripture. Forgiveness is tied to works or deeds. Not in scripture.

[shawnpfan2010]

Good point; it is true that Jesus hung out with the sinners. They're going to have to face the idea that they're sinning eventually if they want to follow Jesus. I do see what you mean though, it probably isn't something you should hit them with right away. So the next questions are, how do you help them get to a point of repentance? How do you find the balancing point where you're not condoning what they do but not condemning them either? Someone has to tell them the truth.

I think you can tell them the truth, but you have to find the point where you are just completely turning them off and stop there. After that, you live the truth and hope that someday they come around enough for you to help them, but that's really up to God. He controls the hardening and softening of hearts.

Help me out here. In the last words you said "He controls the hardening and softening of hearts", explain that to me please. I thought man had free will?? Unless you are getting into predestination?

[separateunion]

Unless you are getting into predestination?

Yes.

[shawnpfan2010]

So I take it you are Presbyterian in your belief??

[executioner]

I actually think the original texts are as clear as the English. I think the scholars that are bringing this subject to light are just trying to justify what they truly believe and that is they disagree with God and feel that lifestyle is ok.
I had a disscussion with my pastor today about it and he says it was and always has been in any version and text of the Bible that Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for practicing Homosexuality. He went on to say this is probably the one of maybe 5 sins in the Bible that it is clearly wrong in any language or version.
Anyone that comes on here and says it is not clear is just trying to justify it for unknown reasons to us. Maybe if we had more people like Brent around here and in this Country we wouldn't be so blinded by the inmorality that is going on.

[Shell]

It's easy for people to get caught up in trying to justify something to cover their own butts. That can happen on any level with nearly anything. There's no question the Bible is clear about homosexuality, even if there is debate over translating from one language to another and taking into account the challenges of translating Hebrew and Greek into English. I don't think anyone is disputing that.

What gets me the most is the double standard. It's okay for every other group to have rights except for Christians. Christians are "narrow-minded"; homosexuals are living an "alternate lifestyle". It's okay to be a "diverse culture", but not okay to be a culture that puts God first.

Blah.

[Shell]

This has been more a discussion about Bible translations and what it says about homosexuality than anything, I haven't actually seen anyone condemn or judge her.

[Jonathan]

I won't name any names, but this description of being arrogant, overfed, and unconcerned (ie, not helping the poor and needy) sounds a lot like a certain country in this day and age too.

Have you thought of praying for the country or shall you just keep judging and condemning it?

[executioner]

Matthew,

I never said anything in my posts about homosexuality being the only reason for their destruction, so get with it and stop reading something that isn't there.

BTW you might be praying for our country, but you always take an opportunity to point out our sinful nature. Just remember my fine Christian brother your country is in the same boat as ours and holes are just as big.

[Jonathan]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...he never mentioned any names.