Bad Witness by a Christian Band

[spottacus]

Check it out. Stryper is doing everyone a disservice with this behavior.

http://www.stryper-pay-back.tk/

[epdc]

I`m so but so disappointed of them... I wrote a letter to stryper and michael sweet. I maybe won`t make any difference but still wanted to do it.... sigh, I`m so but so sad...

[epdc]

with my brother has told me about the history of this band and now this...I realized very sad that this bad becomes christian when is the best "for them"....they are not christian, they are anything and God pukes each person that is not cold or hot but warm.

[epdc]

haven`t the promoters consider in sue them???

[spottacus]

I think that Stryper and their management are within their rights, legally, to do this. They have the law (and a contract) on their side, and they're technically correct.

It seems that the problem here is moral. They claim that the promoters failed to live up to the contract so that they could keep the money for doing nothing, not caring that the concert would still happen with or without them, and not caring that they were irreversibly ruining many peoples' finances.

[BigD]

In the interest of being "fair and balanced":

http://www.stryper.com/news/mexico.html

Okay, now that that's over with, what a disgrace. Screw legality, if that's what you have to rely on to make your case then you've already lost. Stryper should give back the money and not take up "donations".

[petrafan]

ok a contract is a contract, specially when it's signed by the parties, of course.
but here are some considerations id like to share.
first, we dont know all the terms of the contract. the promoters say the alleged contract breach was a 2,5 hour delay on providing the visas to stryper. stryper doesnt say which were the contract breaches.
well the promoters agreed to pay a hundred grand, which sounds like a rip off. why would they be so dumb?
there's an aspect to this story that can only been understood in depth by christian music fans that live outside the USA.
since most of today's CCM bands are american, it's easy for anyone who lives in america to attend a concert. in some cases, the band you wanna see is playing in your neighborhood or in your metro area. in some cases, all it takes is some gas and some hours driving to an back from the concert.
but for one who lives from mexico to patagonia, attending a concert of their favorite christian band or artist is almost a life time opportunity, a once-in-your-life kind of event.
i went to the Petra concert in Brazil that was eventually cancelled (the promoter didnt pay the PA firm). me and my wife travelled one hour by plane then picked up the car we had booked and drove for more 3 hours to get to the hotel we had booked - we knew the concert would finish late at night and we couldnt make our way back the same day.
other people travelled by bus for 6, 8, even 12 hours then back, just to see Petra.
Petra has played in Brazil (that im aware of) twice in 1995, then 3 times in 1998, 3 times in 2003 and once in 2004. that means less than 10 times in a decade. and i can assure you my american brothers in Christ, that's a lot. we never saw Amy Grant. Michael W Smith played here just once and there was no "bis" (the one or two songs an artist plays when they come back to stage "after" the end of the concert). Guardian has come here a couple times. only Bride has come here more times than Petra.
for me, that explains why the mexican promoters agreed to pay whatever amount of money to see Stryper. it was the chance of their lives, to organize and promote a concert with Stryper as the big name of the event. the mexican promoters are not dumb. they are not irresponsible or reckless. they are just thirsty to see their favorite artist as all of us from the rest of the world.
another aspect: us guys from outside America are kinda still goin thru our version of the Jesus movement. things that happened in CCM in America 30 years ago, are still ongoing here. so we lack experience, we lack familiarity with all the industry-side of CCM, with the business aspect of it.
more: Latin America has gone thru some kind of modernization and economical openness (?) in the last 30, 20 years. the VCR arrived here in the early 80s and became a common article in some (not everybody's) people's house a decade later. we are still experiencing the DVD boom, the kinda thing that happens when a new technology is already a couple years old to be considered reliable and also not so expensive as in the beggining of its introduction to the great public.
and the same happens with some of our institutions. specially when it comes to public and governmental institutions like public offices and departments - including customs.
with that said, a 2,5 hour delay for the visas sound like a joke for most of us from south and latin america. i mean, only 2,5 hours late? sometimes we get things accomplished weeks late. only 2,5 hours for stryper to consider it a good reason not to take the plane?
not to mention the 100 grand. how much does stryper ask for for a regular concert in the USA? shouldnt they consider a discount for the economically struggling brothers outside the USA? couldnt they revise their standard contract to accomodate the differences in the organization of the event when compared to a concert held in the States during the concert season?
again, we dont know all the terms of the contract. but as someone said, there's more to the story than just the contract. and as for me, even though the promoters agreed with what stryper asked for and also knowing they might have broken the contract in some ways, i still feel stryper carried all of this too easily for themselves, if you all get what i mean.
just my point of view.
blessings.

[brent]

In the interest of being "fair and balanced":

http://www.stryper.com/news/mexico.html

Okay, now that that's over with, what a disgrace. Screw legality, if that's what you have to rely on to make your case then you've already lost. Stryper should give back the money and not take up "donations".

Ok you guys. In this business "bend you over" is a promoters middle name. Everyone looks to get something for nothing. The people don't want to pay for a big show, but want one, the promoters don't want to get insurance, pay the bands, pay attornies, report accurate ticket sales to skip out on the band and the IRS, ect, etc. A bands expenses are fixed. Large or small, airfare is airfare, gear is gear, time is time. Things cost what they cost.

Many Christian bands get stiffed BIG TIME by Christians. I cringe every time I see a cross and dove on some ministry or personal check. They almost always are NSF!! I know of MAJOR ministries here in Tulsa OK that at one time owed EIGHT YEARS of water bills to the city. Christians think that it is ok to rob one another.

Most smart bands, and certainly professional bands with management, have terms. The reason why bands get deposits, especially small bands like Stryper, is they need to lock the dates out, book flights, crate the gear/pay cartage, cover legals, etc, etc. Petra even gets 50% up front to prove intent. If they didn't, then any 18 year old wanna-be promoter would have them blocking out bogus dates that they could be making money somewhere else. The other 50 is due upon load in usually. Some will take it at the end of the gig.

$100k is certainly not too much for a band like Stryper. These guys are in demand. Huey freakin' Lewis gets $100k according to my ClearChannel promotions site. Huey has been outta' sight for about 10 years!

The deal is this. Stryper doesn't really want to do the dates for the sake of doing them. They all have jobs and family needs. They did the last tour to passify the demand and make a few bucks. So what? They are not a ministry. They are not a "Christian" band. They are Christians that play rock music. Just because they sing about God doesn't mean that they should spend their own money, put their lively hoods at risk, and go do a show in Mexico.

What if the stage collapses and kills people? Who's on the hook? Stryper. What if the scaffolding collapses? What if the stadium or building has a fire? The band is always involved in payouts. ALWAYS. So why should they take that risk?

Until you have worked on this side of promotions and touring, you really have no idea how many people have their hands in the artists pockets. It truely seems like the artist is the bad guy, but that is seldom the case.

[PetfanInCt]

In the interest of being "fair and balanced":

http://www.stryper.com/news/mexico.html

Okay, now that that's over with, what a disgrace. Screw legality, if that's what you have to rely on to make your case then you've already lost. Stryper should give back the money and not take up "donations".

Ok you guys. In this business "bend you over" is a promoters middle name. Everyone looks to get something for nothing. The people don't want to pay for a big show, but want one, the promoters don't want to get insurance, pay the bands, pay attornies, report accurate ticket sales to skip out on the band and the IRS, ect, etc. A bands expenses are fixed. Large or small, airfare is airfare, gear is gear, time is time. Things cost what they cost.

Many Christian bands get stiffed BIG TIME by Christians. I cringe every time I see a cross and dove on some ministry or personal check. They almost always are NSF!! I know of MAJOR ministries here in Tulsa OK that at one time owed EIGHT YEARS of water bills to the city. Christians think that it is ok to rob one another.

Most smart bands, and certainly professional bands with management, have terms. The reason why bands get deposits, especially small bands like Stryper, is they need to lock the dates out, book flights, crate the gear/pay cartage, cover legals, etc, etc. Petra even gets 50% up front to prove intent. If they didn't, then any 18 year old wanna-be promoter would have them blocking out bogus dates that they could be making money somewhere else. The other 50 is due upon load in usually. Some will take it at the end of the gig.

$100k is certainly not too much for a band like Stryper. These guys are in demand. Huey freakin' Lewis gets $100k according to my ClearChannel promotions site. Huey has been outta' sight for about 10 years!

The deal is this. Stryper doesn't really want to do the dates for the sake of doing them. They all have jobs and family needs. They did the last tour to passify the demand and make a few bucks. So what? They are not a ministry. They are not a "Christian" band. They are Christians that play rock music. Just because they sing about God doesn't mean that they should spend their own money, put their lively hoods at risk, and go do a show in Mexico.

What if the stage collapses and kills people? Who's on the hook? Stryper. What if the scaffolding collapses? What if the stadium or building has a fire? The band is always involved in payouts. ALWAYS. So why should they take that risk?

Until you have worked on this side of promotions and touring, you really have no idea how many people have their hands in the artists pockets. It truely seems like the artist is the bad guy, but that is seldom the case.

Brent,

Stryper is a Christian band and they are a ministry. What are you talking about.

[executioner]

I agree with Brent on this. I guarntee Stryper has in it in their contract that the upfront money is nonrefundable. The promoters knew about it. Stryper said on their site that things didn't add up, There was problems with unsafe conditions and being assured that they would be in the country legally. The promoter chose not to fix the these concerns that Stryper had and Stryper had no other choice but to back out. I do not blame them for this, Yes maybe they should give the upfront money back, but also you have to look at the fact that they both signed a contract and Stryper had every right to break out of it if the promoter was not honoring the contract.

[executioner]

I've been reading the statement by the other bands and I really do not think that the statement is legit. I know for a fact that legally no known third party is aloud to look at or research a legal binding contract without representation of all parties. In otherwords if no one from Stryper or Stryper Management was present when those bands looked at the contract that Stryper signed then they are commiting a federal crime, because the contract was signed by at least one party(Stryper) in the U.S., then it can and would be upheld by the law of the United States. Then my question what was these other bands doing by looking at the contract that Stryper signed? They all have different contracts that they signed for this event, and frankly it's none of their business what Stryper had in their contract.

[brent]

1. Stryper has NEVER marketed themselves as a Christian band. They explicitly stated exactly what I said ("We are not a Christian band. We are musicians that happen to be Christians"). They are NOT a ministry in the legal sense of it. They may be ministering through what they do, but I assure you that they are not a 503 organization, nor is their purpose solely to minister. They're purpose is to play music and make money. Period. Very different.

2. Deposit money is almost always non-refundable. Again, managers get 10%, booking agents get 10% minimum, tickets were secured, income from their day jobs at the wharehouse, kids ranch and whatever Robert does was put aside. Bills were probably paid up at the office, etc. You can't just get all of that money back to give it back to a promoter.

If that 50% gets you stoked, then think about this: If there is an act-of-God, or the Tech Rider has not been fullfilled, 99.9% of the pro bands reserve the right to keep 100% and not perform. I have seen it happen, worked for bands that have done it. It's bad for the promoter, but oh well. That's why they get insurance. If the promoter down there had raised all of their money up front, then they wouldn't be having this problem. This says to me that they were underfunded.

If those people need the money so badly, why are they blowing $100k on a couple of hours worth of entertainment? If you want to save souls, the Holy Spirit has been knocking on heart's doors for free for a few years now. It wasn't about ministry. Ministry is taking $100k and feeding a crap load of people down there, building some concrete block houses for people living in cardboard. That's what my church does every year. Maybe we should stop since they have money to "rock" with.

[Mitch]

1. Stryper has NEVER marketed themselves as a Christian band. They explicitly stated exactly what I said ("We are not a Christian band. We are musicians that happen to be Christians"). They are NOT a ministry in the legal sense of it. They may be ministering through what they do, but I assure you that they are not a 503 organization, nor is their purpose solely to minister. They're purpose is to play music and make money. Period. Very different.

2. Deposit money is almost always non-refundable. Again, managers get 10%, booking agents get 10% minimum, tickets were secured, income from their day jobs at the wharehouse, kids ranch and whatever Robert does was put aside. Bills were probably paid up at the office, etc. You can't just get all of that money back to give it back to a promoter.

If that 50% gets you stoked, then think about this: If there is an act-of-God, or the Tech Rider has not been fullfilled, 99.9% of the pro bands reserve the right to keep 100% and not perform. I have seen it happen, worked for bands that have done it. It's bad for the promoter, but oh well. That's why they get insurance. If the promoter down there had raised all of their money up front, then they wouldn't be having this problem. This says to me that they were underfunded.

If those people need the money so badly, why are they blowing $100k on a couple of hours worth of entertainment? If you want to save souls, the Holy Spirit has been knocking on heart's doors for free for a few years now. It wasn't about ministry. Ministry is taking $100k and feeding a crap load of people down there, building some concrete block houses for people living in cardboard. That's what my church does every year. Maybe we should stop since they have money to "rock" with.

Great post, Brent. I couldn't agree more.

Back in '94 or '95, Carmen and his group left an outdoor festival in Louisville, KY because his dancers wouldn't fit on the stage. From what I've been told, he didn't refund any $$ either.

It IS too bad that the Mexican Church lost so much money. Although I have to take Stryper's side on this. Whatever that's worth

Mitch

[BigD]

Brent, you obviously have no idea who these people are - it even says on Stryper's site that they were very new promoters, and from the looks of things, not trying to screw anyone - they went to extremes to even get close to the 100k for Stryper.

Also, a passage from the site Spott linked:

Despite Stryper's management delivering copies of all passports 3 weeks later than requested

Considering Stryper's own management dropped the ball in that area, some leniency would be require concerning the visas (let's see, 3 weeks late, two and a half hours late...three weeks, three hours, which is more. hmmmm...).

Stryper shouldn't give the money back because the underground church went to such lengths to get them there (that was just stupid to sell off so much stuff just for one band). They should give it back because it's the right thing to do. Do no work, get no pay. Simple.

[brent]

Yes, you are right. I don't know who they are. I don't need to. I am telling you how things go done the other 6 day a week, and what the norm is. None of us know the REAL story here.

I would not bite on that website though. There are too many missing facts and too many generalities. On the other hand the story from the Stryper site is pretty plain:

It was this promoter�s first attempt at a large concert and they were unfortunately not equipped to properly handle a concert of this magnitude.

No one is more upset about this cancellation than Stryper. The band and crew, who all live in various parts of the country, had flown in to one destination to begin rehearsals. Flights to Mexico were booked. Merchandise was already shipped to Mexico. Gear was packed, some of which was already en route to Mexico. All arrangements had been made on the band�s part to make this show a reality. Stryper fulfilled their obligations of the contract in every manner, and in the process spent incredible amounts of money doing so.

Stryper is a large organization, staffing upwards of 15 people, not including the band members.

The promoters were, on at least a dozen occasions, encouraged by Stryper�s management to reschedule the show if they were not going to be able to fulfill their obligations of the contract. Repeatedly, Stryper�s management warned that a forced cancellation would be extremely costly on Stryper�s part. And repeatedly Stryper was given assurance from the promoters that these obligations would be fulfilled. In the end, this proved untrue.

The non-refundable deposits from the promoter had long since been allocated and disbursed on expenses directly related to the show.

The North Carolina based company Deep South Entertainment manages Stryper.

Co-Founder of Deep South Entertainment, Dave Rose comments, �We are all extremely saddened by this situation. In simple terms: We do concerts like this worldwide, everyday, with a wide variety of artists. The process is actually quite simple and standard throughout the industry. We (management and promoter) agree to the basic terms (i.e. Date, Venue, Payment amount, technical and travel obligations, etc.). Once these terms are agreed to, both parties sign a standard performance contract outlining the terms, just as was done in the case of this concert. If the artist fails to meet the terms, they are held responsible. If the promoter fails to meet the terms, then they are held responsible. In this case, it�s as simple as that; the promoter failed to meet, on multiple levels, the terms of the contract.�

He goes on to explain, �The cost to operate a major band, such as Stryper, depends on several variables. One of which is �Touring Season versus a Non-Touring Season.� If a show happens during a Non-Touring Season, often referred to in the industry as a �one-off�, it almost doubles, sometimes triples, the cost of the show and thus the price of the band. The band, crew, and team, has other obligations during the Non-Touring Season. These obligations must be set aside and a team that is otherwise immobile, must be mobilized. This is very costly. During a Touring Season, however, the costs can be amortized over many shows, thus making the cost of each show minimal. With a band such as Stryper, expenses begin to incur from the moment a show is contracted, which is the reason that all standard performance agreements require non-refundable money up front.

Early in our talks with the promoters, but very prior to contracting this show, we believed that Stryper MIGHT be in the middle of a touring season around the date in question. When it was quickly discovered (early on in 2004), and again, very prior to contracting the date, that this was not the case; that Stryper would not be touring during this time, we then, still very early in our talks, proposed other dates. The promoters, however, insisted on this date of November 20. They were made fully aware of the fact that this would be a Non-Touring time frame for Stryper and thus would be more costly than if we were to try to pick another date. So, a price was set, and agreed to, and a contract was issued and signed by both parties.�

He adds, �But contract�s aside, we realize there�s a human aspect to this as well. And even though Stryper was promised things that were not delivered, we still wish no harm to the promoters. They are nice people and we would love to work with them, even still, in possibly rescheduling another date. In the meantime, we have set up a collector�s package on Stryper.com in which 100% of the net proceeds go to help out the promoters and their families. We expect encouragingresults from the sale of this package.�

It always has been, and always will be, Stryper�s goal to entertain, uplift, and offer hope through their music. The reason for performance contracts is to protect both the artist and the promoter so that future performances will be a reality for both parties. Stryper would not be able to continue to reach millions of people through their music if they simply disregarded the very real business aspect of their organization, including performance contracts.

Stryper greatly appreciates the prayers and support of friends and fans worldwide and is excited about a big year in 2005.


So, you see, the reason that Stryper was late on their end was because they were getting signals that it wasn't going to happen.

I think that unless you have worked this side of things, you have no idea about the costs and procedures, and so it seems unfair. Bit it's not like they have the moeny to give back. Try to rent a rehearsal space, buy 25 plain tickets, pay for a semi-load of gear, pay the wages, perdiems, etc, etc out od touring season and at the last minute. It's expensive. 25 plain tickets alone at an average of 500 bucks is $12,500.