Bad Witness by a Christian Band

spottacus · Post by **spottacus** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:05 am

I think it's clear to us all that the promoter did an imperfect job of handling this show. However, the bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that the show did happen, and the other bands had/have no objections. In fact, it's been pointed out elsewhere that the other bands have posted items critical of Stryper on some of their websites.

All the visas and travel arrangements were successfully made by the promter, though maybe not in exactly the way that Stryper's management wanted it done. It just isn't right to grab a technicality and claim it so that you can keep the money for doing nothing.

epdc · Post by **epdc** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:42 am

I wrote to the church asking if there were going to sue or something and man!! it seems the promoter says ethy will consider that, sigh. he seemed like if he didn`t know what to do.

Legally speaking, you guys are right, usually contracts like that say that they won`t give back the money. The promoter should have considered how annoying the band was becoming with the money and stuff and should have quit. still, the whole event was awesome, they shouldn`t have paid that attention to stryper.

Morally, stryper is wrong, maybe they are just christians who play rock music and don`t consider themselves "a ministry" but still, they are christians, they suppose to have moral

I mean, come on, they didn`t work for it, what are they gonna do with the money? go to beach or buy something stupidly expensive?.

I believe they don`t wanna give it back because they already spend it anyways

Historymaker · Post by **Historymaker** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:16 am

As I entertain the ruminations of those here at the zone, who fervently submit post after post in an effort to sift some manner of sense or logic out of the ensuing chaos of WHATEVER happened in Mexico with promoters, Stryper, tamales, Paco, Pedro, Guido, Cubby, and Annette... I lean back in my poorly assembled Ashley dining room chair and regard my computer knowingly as a father regards a child who simply doesn't know any better. If I had a web camera, I would post a shot of my 'knowing' look because it looks more 'knowing' than normal, even with the badly ravaged forest that is my morning hairdo. Or hair don't. Anyways, all of you could look at the picture and say 'gee, that looks like one knowing guy!'. Or look at the picture and throw your computer monitors out da window.

Moving on... as I sip my morning cup of joe with the greatest of satisfaction, I stretch and decide to graciously, freely, educate everyone here at the zone in regards to what I like to call 'the big picture'. In all the debates, the points made, I have yet to see the most IMPORTANT question that should be asked in this situation. After asking myself 'why?' over and over again with no response, I realized I had forgotten that I was giving myself the silent treatment again. I digress.

Nevertheless, the question remains. The truth is out there, and now for the asking:

MORTIFICATION IS FROM AUSTRALIA?!?!?!

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:42 am

Ryan, you are a raving lunatic, LOL. Are you sure having a small child hasn't gotten to you?

brent · Post by **brent** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:42 am

epdc wrote:I wrote to the church asking if there were going to sue or something and man!! it seems the promoter says ethy will consider that, sigh. he seemed like if he didn`t know what to do.

Legally speaking, you guys are right, usually contracts like that say that they won`t give back the money. The promoter should have considered how annoying the band was becoming with the money and stuff and should have quit. still, the whole event was awesome, they shouldn`t have paid that attention to stryper.

Morally, stryper is wrong, maybe they are just christians who play rock music and don`t consider themselves "a ministry" but still, they are christians, they suppose to have moral I mean, come on, they didn`t work for it, what are they gonna do with the money? go to beach or buy something stupidly expensive?.

I believe they don`t wanna give it back because they already spend it anyways

How is Stryper morally wrong? They did what they agreed to do and the promoter did not. How is Stryper immoral? The people down there messed up, not Stryper.

The band is not keeping the money. They spent about half of it on traveling and cartage to get prepare for the show. They had to pay expenses with it. That's what bands do with deposits. You have an correct view as to how it all works.

spottacus · Post by **spottacus** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:05 am

This was shared by Whitewashed at the Christian Metal Realm EZ Board:

What we are forgetting is where is God in all this. Obviously the festival was God's plan. I don't think it's a problem for God to raise even $1.000.000.000 if He determins to do so. Four bands were given the opportunity to go there and play their music and spread the Gospel to unbelievers. The conditions were tough and the arrangements poor. The bands had to take a step in faith to go on a risky trip like that with issues not sorted out. Three of the bands did just that and despite all the troubles they managed to get there by God's help and their shows was a great success and God's name was proclaimed. Truly it was a miracle that the trips for all of the bands that chose to go worked out fine. Stryper chose not to go although I'm certain that God would have led them there without problems just as the other bands that came all the way from Sweden and Austrailia.

PetfanInCt · Post by **PetfanInCt** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:32 am

[quote="brent"]1. Stryper has NEVER marketed themselves as a Christian band. They explicitly stated exactly what I said ("We are not a Christian band. We are musicians that happen to be Christians"). They are NOT a ministry in the legal sense of it. They may be ministering through what they do, but I assure you that they are not a 503 organization, nor is their purpose solely to minister. They're purpose is to play music and make money. Period. Very different.

They write Christian songs and perform Christian songs. What your saying doesnt make sense

brent · Post by **brent** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:13 pm

PetfanInCt wrote:
brent wrote:1. Stryper has NEVER marketed themselves as a Christian band. They explicitly stated exactly what I said ("We are not a Christian band. We are musicians that happen to be Christians"). They are NOT a ministry in the legal sense of it. They may be ministering through what they do, but I assure you that they are not a 503 organization, nor is their purpose solely to minister. They're purpose is to play music and make money. Period. Very different.

They write Christian songs and perform Christian songs. What your saying doesnt make sense

Hank Williams and many other old and current country artists sang/sing about God, amazing grace and love but they aren't Christian artists either. It's the market that you are in and your motif that is the determining factor.

The deal is that they did not intend on coming into the church market. If they got that audience, it was ok. But they play secular venues, to secular people. That would seem to be evangelistic. Yet, beer was sold at every concert that I attended in OK. I even went home smelling like pot. There was no sharing of God's salvation and no chance given to receive it. It was entertainment.

They themselves ran far from any labeling as a Christian band just like U2, because that would put them an umbrella of the church, which did not want them anyway. They said in numerous interviews in print and on TV that they were musicians that happened to be Christians. They were not part of the Christian music machine, which in truth would have turned the secular world off. There were numerous cross over artists to both sides that failed in due time.

I was in Christian radio at that time and the label did not want us having a record initially. We went and bought it ourselves. Correction. I went and bought it myself. This was their doing, not ours folks.

A ministry is different than a Christian band that entertains. Very different. Everyone that is born again has a ministry. But we are talking about the legal sense of doing it corporately. A ministry has a mission to do the will of God, fulfilling the great commission. If is is not doing that, it is merely entertainment. A ministry is an outgrowth of the church body where Christians fellowship. A ministry can be a band. But in this case, Stryper has never functioned in ministry work corporately when there was no recording, touring, etc. There was no Stryper evanglism. When Michael quit, they toured for two more years then split up. No ministry.

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:43 pm

Could I make a suggestion before things get too insane here?

Spend a little less time trying to figure out what happened and whose fault it was and spend a little more time praying for them. There usually is more than one side to every story, and very often mistakes are made by all parties involved in a situation like this.

You can't really understand what all is involved in planning a concert unless you've actually tried to do so. Just thought I'd throw that in.

BigD · Post by **BigD** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:44 pm

I'm inclined to ponder Ryan's questio for now (definitely wasn't what I was expecting; good for a laugh); I've made my point. You don't keep money for work you didn't do.

pethead · Post by **pethead** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:05 pm

Here is a direct quote that Michael Sweet from Stryper wrote on www.stryperforum.com today...
Hello everyone,

I wanted to take a moment to share a few things with you.

So many things have been said from many people regarding the cancelation of the Mexico City show.

A very disturbing part to this story is the fact that some people choose (Steve Rowe for example) to question and judge our motives yet at the same time do so without knowing all the facts.

Here are some facts that many of you may not know:

1 - Stryper did originally cancel with the promoter before any money was paid out to the band - months before the show!

2 - The promoters started calling the band members asking Stryper to re-consider. We directed them to management.

3 - It was not a good time for the band to perform (management explains this in the statement they released) therefore it would be MUCH more expensive for the band to come to Mexico.

4 - We had to pay for flights to Boston, hotels, per diem, rental cars, float for other expenses (strings, batteries, drum heads, tape, tools, cables, parts, fuel), as well as being obligated to pay management (who had an office full of people working on this show for over 6 months) and we were obligated to pay the band and crew. Our time was taken from our other jobs, and other shows that were "on the table" were cancelled to do the Mexico City show. It was VERY costly to us and those costs and expenses had to be paid. Also, time after time contracts are breached. If the promoter breaches, the Agency, Management, and band legally have the right to keep the deposit that was paid by the promoter. If the band breaches the agreement, they are required to send the money back. This was part of the agreement and it was made very clear to the promoter within the agreement that was signed.

5 - The work visas were not in place and this is what led to the final decision to not go the Mexico. It's been said that this was the fault of management - not true! Itï¿½s been said that the work visas were in place - not true! Management did all that they could do to resolve the work visa issue. My question is - if it was the fault of our management then why didn't any of the other bands have work visas? If you read all the statements from all those involved you will find that no one had work visas. Why? The promoter did not provide them. We have, on many occasions, been detained by customs due to improper paper work or not having work visas. We have had to pay obscene amounts of money to customs in order to get in to a particular country to perform. Also, to bring our equipment in to the country. Again, there are times when you have to use wisdom and you canï¿½t blindly say ï¿½just trust in The Lordï¿½. God calls us to be smarter than that.
We have learned the hard way and we donï¿½t make those same mistakes anymore.

6 - Once management knew that this show was just too much for the promoter to handle, they pleaded with the promoter to re-schedule and set another date - the promoter did not take the advice and decided to move forward with the date. Itï¿½s been said that they could not change the date? Any show date can be changed that far in advance. Itï¿½s been done many, many times before in the industry and will be done many, many times again in the industry. It happens all the time.

All the promoter had to do was tell management that the work visas were a problem or the finances were a problem or the arrangements were a problem - he did not. He continued to to tell our management that everything was fine and in place - it was not.

Now, all the facts aside, we are a band and a ministry that cares for people and we are 100% serious about our faith, our message and the gifts and the calling that God has given to us. We will do all that we can to help the promoters and the people in Mexico.

Regardless of what Steve Rowe, Narnia, Saviour Machine and or the people that represent them say, we love the Lord with all of our hearts, minds and souls and only He knows our hearts and motives. We also rely upon Him for guidance and wisdom. We are a ministry but this is also our job, our livelihood. It seems impossible for Steve Rowe, Narnia, Saviour Machine, Mortification and those who believe their false views, to comprehend this fact. Do I have the right to protest other Christian bands for what they ask as a guarantee for performing a show? Of course not! Itï¿½s none of my business. There are Christian bands and Christian artists that I know personally that get paid $150,000, $200,000, $250,000 per show and sometimes even more. Is it my business - absolutely not! This is a job as well as a ministry for Stryper. We have to be concerned with the business side of things as well as the spiritual side. It may not be this way for the other bands involved but it is for us. Once again, this is our livelihood as it is our Ministry. If we heard that Mortification received money to do a show and pulled out due to breach of contract on the promoters side would we question why? Of course not! Would we force ourselves into their business and judge them? Of course not! Nor would be say anything about what they are asking to perform. Itï¿½s not our business.We have not personally spoken to any of you who choose to judge and attack our Ministry without knowing all the facts and without hearing both sides, but one can only hope that as you sit there reading these words that you will feel convicted for the the contradictions in your faith, and that someday you'll find peace.

Always,

Stryper

petrafan · Post by **petrafan** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:11 pm

something i learned in the training and preparation phase for a mission trip with a christian missionary band: the rules are made for people, instead of the people being made for the rules.

that's why laws and legal instruments need to be interpreted by lawyers and judges. the law doesnt work by itself.

i deal with contracts everyday. first thing you learn about them is contracts were made not to be used. in heaven there will be no contracts.

contracts are made and signed to protect the parties of bein taken advantage of by the other party. in the case of a band, contracts are made to protect the band of being exploited by a malicious promoter and ending financially damaged by dealing with him.

in this case, since the beggining it was clear stryper wasnt dealing with professional promoters that do it as a job and make their living out of it. they were dealing with a church, a christian community that was organizing a concert.

in the end, what is clear above all things is that the mexican promoters chose the wrong band. they invited 3 christian bands that faced the opportunity as a mission, and a secular band that's eventually made of christian people, that faced the opportunity as another profitable gig.

it's a very good lesson for all people that are thinking of doing the same kind of event. maybe they'll remember this case and invite only christian bands.

pethead · Post by **pethead** » Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:25 pm

The fact of the matter is..Stryper's business is exactly that..STRYPER'S business. Right or wrong, their personal business decisions are between them and God.

Maybe we should dig up some dirty stuff about the ignorant people that took time to post negative comments about Stryper here on this forum, and have everyone rip you and your personal life up. Hmmm, sounds like a plan to me. No?? Well then, next time keep your yapper shut until official announcements are made from both parties so all stories can be heard.

I'm sorry. I really don't mean to sound like a jerk. It's just...ignorant "mouthy" "know it all" people bug me..that's all. Forgive me..

Also, Stryper IS a Christian band. They outwardly proclaim and uplift the name if Jesus in their music. They do play secular venues, however, that does not make them just "four guys that happen to be Christians and play rock". They are indeed a very Christian band that has had huge success and blessing from the Lord, and much more to come.

Thanks for hearing me out. I don't post much, but I read the board every day, and have for years now. Blessings!

St. Augustine's Pears · Post by **St. Augustine's Pears** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:24 am

Judas priest, this topic has stirred up a hurricane in a phone booth...thought I would grab a sword and wade in!

Just a little off-the-tangent...when Petra scheduled their concert in Independence, IA back on 10-20-04, I called the phone # listed for "ticket info". It was a pastor's house! The pastor (very nice man, by the way) told me that 10-12 churches in the area had joined together to bring Petra to Independence. He said the concert was essentially "free", with a good-will offering being taken. He also said that although money was not the driving factor, he admitted that they would like to at least "break even" (which is a modest goal). Now, I agree with Brent...it takes a lot of $$$ to put on a concert. I've wondered since then if the churches did break even.

And before any of you "Nosy Nates"

start inquiring...yes, I did contribute to the offering, plus supported the band by buying a "JEKYLL & HYDE World Tour" T-shirt. I would've bought more, but you know how those darn kids of mine take up all my extra dough!

Gosh darn little ankle-biting, Kool-Aid spilling, crayon-scribbling cookie-grabbers...

. Hey, hey, hey...I'm just kidding! I love my kids.

epdc · Post by **epdc** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:50 pm

hehehehehe I was surprised too when I knew Mortification was from australia, I always wondered from where they were from. On their tapes doesn`t appear.

The Petra Zone

Bad Witness by a Christian Band

sigh

I laugh... ha!

Re: sigh

re

re

historymaker

Who is online