Doing Things "Not Of This World"

PetfanInCt · Post by **PetfanInCt** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:18 pm

What a concept this would be in the tradition of Paul and being in the HS.

What about for concert admission they take donations to cover it. If they the artist is doing the Will of the LORD and the concert is for the LORD. There should be no problem with this idea. That way a person would pay what the HS moved them to pay. Giving complete control and trust in the LORD to cover costs.

I think the same concept should be used to cover the cost of cd production
and I do mean all costs....

I will even carry it so far as to say they should not have a set price on cd's they should do it on a donation basis. All Gods work should be distributed on a donation basis

The mainstream way of doing things and by that I mean the regular way of doing things price wise is a worldly creation, and worldly way of doing things..

Like Paul said. We are aliens, We are Not of this World.

So how about we start doing things that are not of this World..

Godbless to all

In Christ
Rich

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:56 pm

I do understand what you're trying to say; the problem with that is your creditors don't accept whatever you can donate to pay your bills. And producers, graphic artists, studio personnel, etc. don't accept whatever you can donate to put together a CD. It doesn't happen in other professions, it's not likely to happen in the music biz.

PetfanInCt · Post by **PetfanInCt** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:16 pm

Shell wrote:I do understand what you're trying to say; the problem with that is your creditors don't accept whatever you can donate to pay your bills. And producers, graphic artists, studio personnel, etc. don't accept whatever you can donate to put together a CD. It doesn't happen in other professions, it's not likely to happen in the music biz.

Shouldn't it be a ministry and not a business..Like Paul talks about. Paul did just fine with donations.

brent · Post by **brent** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:05 pm

Ok. I will tell you why it won't work.

1. We are here on earth. We have to obey the laws. You cannot do a show without someone fronting the expenses first. This is called the promoter. He takes 100% of the risk. If I had a dollar for every well-meaning, soon bankrupt concert promoter or club owner, I would be filthy stinkin' rich.

2. Carman tried the donation at the door thing. The average "suggested" ticket price was $2. TWO DOLLARS! He got soaked!

3. People couldn't care less what the Holy Spirit says about giving. How do I know? How many are in poverty in this country? How many missionaries have needs for clothing, food, water and bibles for their people? How many of your churches are completely debt free, and in the black throughout the year? NONE.

The Holy Spirit couldn't care less about concerts. Don't get me wrong, but there is more effective evangelism worthy of giving than entertainment and the giver's resources.

brent · Post by **brent** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:28 pm

PetfanInCt wrote:
Shell wrote:I do understand what you're trying to say; the problem with that is your creditors don't accept whatever you can donate to pay your bills. And producers, graphic artists, studio personnel, etc. don't accept whatever you can donate to put together a CD. It doesn't happen in other professions, it's not likely to happen in the music biz.
Shouldn't it be a ministry and not a business..Like Paul talks about. Paul did just fine with donations.

OK, take Petra. When they were at the pinnacle of their success, they were about 2 million in the hole I was told. Christian people didn't pay (which is VERY common in this industry. They are usually crooks.) The costs of providing the shows comparable to the world's standards but at a fraction of the ticket price took their toll.

You know how musicians (christian or not) make money? Merchandise. the ticket revenues are a fraction of what does it. That and the guys have to go to a bank and borrow money against their next record's revenue so that they can live.

Equating a modern rock band to Paul is kind of fruity in my book. Comparing anyone to the guy who got a personal, 100% correct, 100% complete revelation of Christ, from Jesus Christ himself, is WAY different than a group of spiritual and musical illiterates (as many of the current Christian artists are) exspousing immature, boiled down pseudo christian songs at 125dB. Thank God for ministry in Petra.

The ministry of Paul was to build churches. Paul was in jail most of the time. He didn't really need a bunch of cash by the way. Anyway, if you want to build churches, then fine. But you have to ask yourself this: If you can shut down the band or the ministry that you are supporting, and the world would still function without it, then it isn't essential. Christian rock bands are not essential. Therefore, you can't equate them to Paul.

No offense. I am trying to identify the line between true ministerial works and entertainment. The bible warns about constantly seeking the entertainment. There are those that do. even Christian types. We should always strive to find ways to get the word out in entertainment. But the problem that I have is when we get so hooked on it, that it becomes a substitution for out invlovement in REAL effective praise and worship, which is ministry.

I have listened to some REAL HUGE heresy in music on my local stations. I think that if people were filtered a bit more, investigated a bit more, then it would not be so bad. We expect our artists to be ministers, expect out ministers at church to be educated, but we don't expect the artist ministers to be educated. To me this is moronic.

This is one of the reasons that I personally think that Rich Mullins was taken off the earth, before he lead millions of mindless, scripturally inept people down the road to Catholicism. He was on his way to his sprinkling when he was killed.

Someone takes this stuff seriously. You might as well be Ozzy, Metallica, Kiss or someother satanic artist ("If you are not for Me, you are against Me" - quote, Jesus Christ) if you aren't going to do it right. Win people to the Lord or get off the stage, while doing a Christian "ministry" concert. If you are entertainment only, then you had better get that clear between you and God Almighty.

That's my thought. Any other musicians or ministers wanna chime in?

PetfanInCt · Post by **PetfanInCt** » Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:58 pm

It sounds crazy but it's exactly the kind of thing Kieth Green did and out of his faith God raised up "Last Day's Ministries". You could buy Kieth's records at your local Christian Bookstore, or you could send away for them for free if you couldn't afford them, or were curious, or whatever. Kieth NEVER charged for concerts. God provided for his ministry... and what a powerful ministry it was!

St. Augustine's Pears · Post by **St. Augustine's Pears** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:41 am

Re: PetFaninCT's remarks...

Regarding Keith Green giving away albums...yes, he did do that, and like Carman, got totally ripped off big time. I remember his widow saying in a magazine article that they had stacks of LPs on tables at concerts, and people would come up and take 10 or 15 copies without dropping one thin measly dime for them. Probably most of those people then turned around and sold them for a nice profit, at the expense of Green's ministry.

And I also remember that due to financial problems, Green's widow (now remarried) had to close down Keith Green Ministries.

I agree with Brent on this one. Christians are notoriously cheap (miserly if you want a kinder word). Hundreds of "Word-of-Faith" ministries are preaching the heretical "prosperity gospel" (also known as "name it and claim it"), telling people that God is a giant genie that will make you rich just by saying the right prayer with the right words...yet these same Christians (if you can call them that) will not give money at a "free-will offering" concert...saying, "Oh, the Lord will take care of (insert artist's name)!".

Oh, and Brent...I'm glad to meet someone else who shares the same opinion of Rich Mullins. I mean, yes, "Awesome God" is probably one of the greatest Christian songs ever recorded, but the man was in serious doctrinal error towards the end of his life.

ErioL · Post by **ErioL** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:57 am

brent wrote: How many of your churches are completely debt free, and in the black throughout the year? NONE.

Not totally true. I used to attend a church that was entirely paid off...And they had huge buildings and a school and a summer camp...There are some

PetfanInCt · Post by **PetfanInCt** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:54 pm

St. Augustine's Pears wrote:Re: PetFaninCT's remarks...

Regarding Keith Green giving away albums...yes, he did do that, and like Carman, got totally ripped off big time. I remember his widow saying in a magazine article that they had stacks of LPs on tables at concerts, and people would come up and take 10 or 15 copies without dropping one thin measly dime for them. Probably most of those people then turned around and sold them for a nice profit, at the expense of Green's ministry.

And I also remember that due to financial problems, Green's widow (now remarried) had to close down Keith Green Ministries.

I agree with Brent on this one. Christians are notoriously cheap (miserly if you want a kinder word). Hundreds of "Word-of-Faith" ministries are preaching the heretical "prosperity gospel" (also known as "name it and claim it"), telling people that God is a giant genie that will make you rich just by saying the right prayer with the right words...yet these same Christians (if you can call them that) will not give money at a "free-will offering" concert...saying, "Oh, the Lord will take care of (insert artist's name)!".

Oh, and Brent...I'm glad to meet someone else who shares the same opinion of Rich Mullins. I mean, yes, "Awesome God" is probably one of the greatest Christian songs ever recorded, but the man was in serious doctrinal error towards the end of his life.

Let me start off by saying that I totally detest the Word of Faith doctrine and movement. The doctrine is totally unbiblical. The people who preach and teach it are false teachers and leading people astray.

I'm on disability. It has been hard and a long process for me to buy all the Petra cd's that I like. Most of them were bought used. I try and get them as cheap as possible, if that makes me a cheapskate then I'm guilty. I dont have the financial resources to be able to go out on a weekly basis and buy cd's I have too many priorities that come first.

I would never take advantage of an artist who has been called to put on a free concert and put out free LP's by taking 10-15 copies for myself. Thats wrong in my book.

IN Christ
RIch

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:08 pm

You might not take advantage of artists like that Rich, but enough people have to cause problems. It makes sense for you not to go out every week and buy stuff if you can't afford it and to look for bargains...They're all over the place on the Internet. But that doesn't mean artists should be obligated to have "donation only" concerts all the time so everyone who can't afford it can go. When you can't afford something, you do without or look for a cheaper alternative. It's called living within a budget.

PetfanInCt · Post by **PetfanInCt** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:22 pm

Shell wrote:You might not take advantage of artists like that Rich, but enough people have to cause problems. It makes sense for you not to go out every week and buy stuff if you can't afford it and to look for bargains...They're all over the place on the Internet. But that doesn't mean artists should be obligated to have "donation only" concerts all the time so everyone who can't afford it can go. When you can't afford something, you do without or look for a cheaper alternative. It's called living within a budget.

We are not talking a commodity here, this is a gift of God to someone - you cannot put a price on it

In Christ
Rich

Shell · Post by **Shell** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:25 pm

It's also entertainment, which is something you can live without. We don't have to have entertainment to survive. You figure out what you can afford and if you can't afford it, you don't go or don't buy it.

brent · Post by **brent** » Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:40 pm

PetfanInCt wrote:
Shell wrote:You might not take advantage of artists like that Rich, but enough people have to cause problems. It makes sense for you not to go out every week and buy stuff if you can't afford it and to look for bargains...They're all over the place on the Internet. But that doesn't mean artists should be obligated to have "donation only" concerts all the time so everyone who can't afford it can go. When you can't afford something, you do without or look for a cheaper alternative. It's called living within a budget.
We are not talking a commodity here, this is a gift of God to someone - you cannot put a price on it

In Christ
Rich

I disagree. It is a commodity. Not by the hands of the bands themselves, but by the ones that live for the cash. But by the same ones that control the publishing of bibles, books, etc., and the glutunous, itching ear public.

If it were not, then there could be one end-all be-all CD collection for all Christians to listen to. There would be one bible sans study notes and nifty references. In fact, all that we would have would be the original next with no other books about the bible needed. But in fact, we keep buying the crap, so people keep writing it, moving us further away from the original instruction manual, or the original praises/psalms.

St. Augustine's Pears · Post by **St. Augustine's Pears** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:03 am

Re: PetFaninCT's remarks...

Nobody's calling you a cheapskate. Heck, if buying used CDs makes you cheap, then I'm downright "Scrooge-like"...I buy 98% of my clothes at second-hand shops (Goodwill, Salvation Army, DAV, etc.). Thankfully, I'm a jeans and T-shirt kind of guy. And yes, I wash every article of clothing before wearing!

Excuse me while I go eat my bowl of cold porridge in a darkened room (the former was a blatant "A Christmas Carol" reference).

No, seriously...sometimes (heck, ALL the time) you gotta put what you need in front of what you want. For example, I would like more Petra CDs in my collection, but the needs of my wife and kids come first.

And a final word on selling CDs and concerts on a "free-will offering" basis...it's good in theory, but not in actual practice.

executioner · Post by **executioner** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:03 pm

I really do not see how Petra was in debt during the 80's and early 90's. I would understand now but back then thats a farce. I know Bob and John both live in very nice areas of town. I don't know about John but Bob doesn't have to work another day in his life if he didn't want too. Bob's guitar workshop is just a hobby according to him and he is taking home very little if any from Petra's concerts since he has been back full time.
I will give you that most artists in CCM are having to that, but there are a few out there that are making quite a bit of money right now and in Petra's case the past.

The Petra Zone

Doing Things "Not Of This World"

Doing Things "Not Of This World"

i

Who is online