Final Update on CITAS and free CITAS downloads.

[brent]

I just talked to the head legal council, which holds the catalog in his hands. There will be no licensing to a third party for CITAS. EVER. For there to be a CITAS, the person who has publishing rights to the music and the label must reach an agreement. This get's into Bob's personal business, and we don't belong there.

The people that need to know that there is demand for a DVD (which 600 is a fraction of a fraction of what they need to see) did not know about the petition. They said that such a thing "was a kind act".

All this to say that EMI is about big money, big business. They have digitized everything that they own, for sale on DSP's (iTunes, etc). Anything that is releasable and profitable is out now, or will be out shortly. The DVD is not happening.

That's it, it's done. Finito.

NOW READ THIS!!!!

I was told that there are some (5,000) lawsuits happening, by the RIAA, which this EMI legal council is part of. They are going after the people who are posting clips of CITAS, or any other videos. They are disheartened that Christians would break the law, cheat the label and the artists. I would recommend pulling your links quickly.

You have been warned.

[Jonathan]

Are they really cheating the label and artists out of something that in effect no longer exists? Its no longer profitable, no longer releasable, therefore worth nothing to them. (Except to litigate against people to whom this is worth something.)

Lame.

Thanks for checking into that, though.

[brent]

Your logic won't hold up in a court of law.

The VHS tape contains the music. The music is still available on CD. Therefore the music must be paid for. Legally, if there was some new old stock (videos never sold, sitting in a storeroom) and they were put on the shelf today, the royalties would still be paid on those copies, even though the video is out of print.

The law is on the side of the artists. They want whats owed to them.

[Dan]

If what you are harping on about is true then ALL the video clips which are better than dial-up quality on johnschlitt.net are a breach aswell.

Brent you need to just sit down and enjoy listening to Petra.

[Jonathan]

Just thinkin' outside the box.

You know, you know.

[PetfanInCt]

Your logic won't hold up in a court of law.

The VHS tape contains the music. The music is still available on CD. Therefore the music must be paid for. Legally, if there was some new old stock (videos never sold, sitting in a storeroom) and they were put on the shelf today, the royalties would still be paid on those copies, even though the video is out of print.

The law is on the side of the artists. They want whats owed to them.

Blah..Shesh you sound like a Pharisee...What is the big deal...

In Christ

Rich

[brent]

1. There is a difference between an artist site hosting downloads, and someone else without permission from the publisher/owner.

2. I only brought it up because Christian's should watch out, because they are in the scopes to be sued by the labels. Piracy in the church is rampant and unscriptural. It's no skin off of my nose if you don't accept the law. The bible says "Obey the law of the land."

3. I gave you guys the heads up, because the label is VERY aware that they are posted here, and they are aware of THEIR legal rights, the artists rights, etc.

4. I didn't make the law, I didn't bring the message to make you mad. I brought the message to help you, by giving you time to yank it from the web.

[PetfanInCt]

1. There is a difference between an artist site hosting downloads, and someone else without permission from the publisher/owner.

2. I only brought it up because Christian's should watch out, because they are in the scopes to be sued by the labels. Piracy in the church is rampant and unscriptural. It's no skin off of my nose if you don't accept the law. The bible says "Obey the law of the land."

3. I gave you guys the heads up, because the label is VERY aware that they are posted here, and they are aware of THEIR legal rights, the artists rights, etc.

4. I didn't make the law, I didn't bring the message to make you mad. I brought the message to help you, by giving you time to yank it from the web.

For the love of money is the root of all evil.

Its all about the money, gimme, gimme some more, no not enough gimme some more. This is work for Jesus. Taking Words out of Bible and making songs from them. Jesus gave us the Bible freely. But we greedy men put a price tag on work for Jesus.

Labels put more value in the dollar then they do Jesus..Period...

Makes me sick. Cant put a law on Jesus's creation.

In Christ
Rich

[executioner]

Brent,


CITAS is actually out of print, so it could be legally rebroadcast over the net without the label or owners permission so as long no money traded hands. I work for a very large media company and we and all media companies that I come in contact with uses these practices that you mentioned above. The videos(whole&Clips) on JWS and all the other fan sites would still need the permission of the owner of the rights of the videos though, because I believe most if not all of those songs are still in print. Also Brent I wonder who made these people aware that this was going on on theZone.

Brent,

There probably isn't an easy way to say this but sometimes you come across the wrong way man. You always go out of your way to prove people wrong and you act like you know it all. You really don't seem to be a very happy person, just an observation from a Christian brother.

[brent]

1. There is a difference between an artist site hosting downloads, and someone else without permission from the publisher/owner.

2. I only brought it up because Christian's should watch out, because they are in the scopes to be sued by the labels. Piracy in the church is rampant and unscriptural. It's no skin off of my nose if you don't accept the law. The bible says "Obey the law of the land."

3. I gave you guys the heads up, because the label is VERY aware that they are posted here, and they are aware of THEIR legal rights, the artists rights, etc.

4. I didn't make the law, I didn't bring the message to make you mad. I brought the message to help you, by giving you time to yank it from the web.

For the love of money is the root of all evil.

Its all about the money, gimme, gimme some more, no not enough gimme some more. This is work for Jesus. Taking Words out of Bible and making songs from them. Jesus gave us the Bible freely. But we greedy men put a price tag on work for Jesus.

Labels put more value in the dollar then they do Jesus..Period...

Makes me sick. Cant put a law on Jesus's creation.

In Christ
Rich

You're right. Selling Jesus is a funky thing. But, money is what makes the world go round. Everyone has to have it. My bill collectors say so. There is nothing wrong with having money. It's when the money has you that it is a problem. I have never been there.

[brent]

Brent,


CITAS is actually out of print, so it could be legally rebroadcast over the net without the label or owners permission so as long no money traded hands.

Not so. CITAS has been digitally remastered, is available for sale on the various music download sites. All of Petra's music is out there. The video's production masters are owned by EMI. They own them. Just because it is not in stores does not negate their (and Bobs publishing) rights. This is per Mr. Richard Greene, Cheif Council/EMI, and RIAA attorney.

I work for a very large media company and we and all media companies that I come in contact with uses these practices that you mentioned above.

I guess Mr. Greene and the courts who pass down the fines are wrong.

The videos(whole&Clips) on JWS and all the other fan sites would still need the permission of the owner of the rights of the videos though, because I believe most if not all of those songs are still in print. Also Brent I wonder who made these people aware that this was going on on theZone.

Well, after talking to Mr. Greene, Inpop people, Louie, John, Rick at Image3, they all have people that keep them up on the sites, or they visit and read. It isn't just happening here.

While I don't agree with it, I can't help but think that this helps show demand for a product/band. in fact, I asked the reason for not cashing in on it. The response that I got was financial. The costs almost always outway the revenues. Mr. Greene understands that a small group wants it, and that even Christians will steal music, but they have to be able to cover expenses, pay royalties to the writers/performers/publishers.

Brent,

There probably isn't an easy way to say this but sometimes you come across the wrong way man. You always go out of your way to prove people wrong and you act like you know it all. You really don't seem to be a very happy person, just an observation from a Christian brother.

That's your opinion and that's ok. I don't see myself that way, but I have beams that block my vision. I am realistic. Maybe a bit jaded at times. Work with musicians and lawyers and you will be to. LOL We don't have to agree. Paul didn't get along with people he worked with either.

Mr. Greene said that he had a hard time explaining the Christian audience in Washington. The skeptics (the same judges and attorneys that pass laws whether they are constitutionally bound to or not) see the Christians stealing merchandise. Just think about the message that it sends. Think about what they must be thinking when they are deciding Christian interests like prayer in schools, "God" in the pledge, "hate speach" from the pulpit, abortion, etc. If they don't see us keeping the law, then we are just asking for whatever they decide. A thought to ponder.

[ijbuck]

Brent stop being the heel against the effort to bring back Captured and Time and Space on dvd. Thanks no that's all

[ijbuck]

Brent,

Also i don't think that there are tons of lawsuits coming up against those who have links available to download clips from captured time and space. EMI wouldn't care about people having clips to download from something that is actually out of print. Either way the cd and Vhs versions are both out of print so there's not much more to say.

[Shell]

Enough guys. It doesn't matter what the motivation is behind the laws, it doesn't change the fact that downloading is illegal. And like it or not, money is often the deciding factor in the business world. They're not going to do something that's going to cost them more money than they bring in. Brent isn't the bad guy here, he's just telling you stuff you don't want to hear. Listen to someone who has a background in the music biz and let it go now. Just a suggestion.

[Masada]

What in the name of all that is holy is wrong with you people?!? Here's a brother who has gone out of his way to track down some information about the possibility of a CITAS DVD and because he brings information that you don't like...you sic the attack dogs on him. Talk about killing the messenger because you don't like the message! I would also like to point out that Brent didn't have to do any of that. Where is the character of Christ in some of these posts? Man! There are times that I just pray to God that no unsaved person stumbles across this website. The example that some people have set chills me to the core! If I wasn't a believer or even if I was a believer but not familiar with Petra, I think I would get turned off to their stuff just cause so much of the junk that is posted here. I know that not everyone is like that ...Sue, Sam, Elo and others. But, there are enough that are and it makes me sick. I have seen the immaturity and back-biting for years and said nothing but enough is enough. I know I am being harsh...but someone needs to say something.

Whether you agree or not, what Brent told you is the truth! The fact remains that CITAS is NOT owned by any of us...the owners have the right to do anything they want with it. Whether we like it or not...posting clips from CITAS is illegal and a terrible witness for Jesus. We don't get to break the law just because we don't agree with it. And no amount of justifying the behavior will be able to excuse it. Rich, not to pick on you personally, but you really need to get a grip on the reality of how ministers and musicians make a living. A workman is worthy of his wages and we are not to muzzle the oxen. Moreover, in our society, we have the law to protect artists and insure that they are able to reap the benefit that they are entitled to. That is NOT unscriptural. The attitude that "Well, I don't like it so I am just going to do whatever I want" is unscriptural. We live in a nation of laws and we are instructed in scripture to adhere to the law of the land so long as it does not interfere with the higher Law of God. That is NOT the case here. We need to keep in mind our witness as we talk about these kinds of things....frankly our example before an unbelieving world is astronomically more important than whether or not we as Petra fan's will ever get a digitized version of CITAS. A little perspective is needed in this matter.

I know I have gone off a bit. I really don't want to offend...but more than causing offense I really hope that some things begin to change on this board. Brent, I for one appreciate the work you have done and think you have shown some keen insight into the flip side of music ministry, ugly as it can get at times. Drop me a line at [email protected] sometimes...I would love to talk.

In Christ,

Eric