Surprised no one talked about this yet

[corolla1]

I don't believe Bush is a Christian. He said once that Jesus wasn't the only way to heaven. Of course Obama isn't a Christian either. I agree with Brent, I don't trust the gov't regardless of party.

This is truly shocking & a real change for the political conversations on this board.

Matthew RJ, I know I came across on this board as a hardcore Republican when I first joined, but I learned a few things along the way. Jesus is not a Democrat or Republican. Both parties are corrupt to the core. America is not a Christian nation. My hope is not in politics, my hope is in Jesus. I want to focus more on the kingdom of God and doing His work and not get too entangled in politics anymore. I stopped listening to talk radio- in fact my wife and I got rid of our cable.

[gman]

Popular Mechanics did a pretty thorough job of debunking the nonsense that's out there. But, I suppose there is still an element of faith involved. If one truly believes one side or the other, no amount of evidence is going to sway them.

[brent]

I have not seen their report.

I think it IS funny, however, that a magazine, staffed with writers, who have been showcasing mythical vehicles and technologies like flying cars of the 1980s and personal rockets of the 90s (since I was reading them in the 1970s), should be consulted and provide the proof. Odd that the government's staff of leading engineers couldn't debunk it. But, I don't expect much from them. They also said that the flood in Nashville was NEVER going to happen again....it did. They said the levies in LA would hold. They didn't. The government's scientists and engineers are not always the best. The ones employed by the largest corporations are. THEY are the ones driving science, our economy, etc. THEY are the great minds. Everyone else is a left over. I know, I know. PM has some brilliant minds. But they ARE media with a bottom line and could have been controlled to dispense the information. Science can be made to say many things. Science is not always right. Sometimes we get answers to incorrect questions and assume that they are true. I wish I had a dollar for every time I hear a news or science program state, "Scientists once thought...." but then some other thought came to replace it. Scientists once thought shock treatment and cutting people's skulls open was a good idea for treating mental disorders. Science thinks it is ok to sell us poisonous drugs that cause wicked side effects and death, resulting in lawsuits and pulling the drugs from the shelves. Science is all about the BIG $$$$MONEY$$$$.

They still can't refute what people did and did not see and report on TV as it happened.

[zak89]

You can't refute it, but you can't prove it either. The photos mean nothing these days. I could give you better shots proving that Anakin Skywalker *really did* behead Count Dooku. I wouldn't put much stock in eyewitnesses in this case either, due the the speed of the event & the catastrophic and simply unbelievable scope of the disaster -it's not something the human mind is going to register right away, and in the aftermath I would expect all sorts of things to come up as people try to make sense of those few seconds of shock. The fatal flaw in the 9/11 conspiracies in my opinion is twofold; first, the sheer number of them - there's no consensus among the "truther" crowd; everyone's got their own idea, and the fact that these ideas are so different, ranging from controlled explosives (with passenger airliner), non-commercial aircraft (presumably loaded with explosives), a combination of these two, and nobody seems to agree on what type of explosive was used, but everyone is certain that their mix is the truth. Whenever you see a pattern of a single conclusion being reached (purportedly) by widely conflicting pathways, there's a good chance that the "conclusion" has already bee decided in someone's mind - it's now a matter of finding the most friendly pieces of evidence.

The second flaw is the sheer size of such a plot; the number of links in the chain would be massive; "passengers" that never were on the planes and so now must be eliminated somehow, a small army of talented people to sneak in a enormous amount of explosives, opening walls and performing major operations to place exactly the right mix in the right place (I'm sorry, but a few hours without power or security cams is *not enough*!).

"How many hundreds of people would you need to acquire the explosives, plant them in the buildings, arrange for the airplanes to crash [...] and, perhaps most implausibly of all, never breathe a single word of this conspiracy?" -via Wikipedia (I know, great source for unbiased, top-notch research... haha. It's just a quote)

[brent]

I don't think that it took that many people to do all of this either way. There were less than 20 people or so involved, IF the thing went down as we are told.

It only took two people in OKC, buying off the shelf stuff to make a big boom.

In the case of the first WTC bombing, there were about three people said to be involved. They drove explosives right on in.

Now, if anyone can smuggle people, drugs, weapons and other explosives in and out of this country, they can get in as a cleaning crew at night and set explosives. Heck, they already showed that they could drive the van in, leave it for a few days, without anyone doing anything about it.

There was a big gaping hole in WTC and FAA air security in any case. Be it a conspiracy or a small group of rebels, it only took a few, no matter who was behind it. US Agencies did not communicate. Planes were not grounded fast enough. The whole machine is too big and too slow. This is why I think that it is so easy for our government, or some other government, to pull off something like this.

I had a friend that went to Rhema Bible School in Broken Arrow, OK. He was a sniper for the Marines. He was on a team that took out people in other countries. He was also their medic. On any given day, we have targets on key people. According to him, we could have taken out OBL. We knew where he was. At one time, it was believed we did and just needed to keep the dream alive. I don't know. Maybe THEY need to keep the dream alive. So, with little groups of people operating under the radar in other countries...yeah, it doesn't take great numbers and most assuredly the left hand cannot know what the right hand is doing.

[separateunion]

I am convinced we can no longer have a TRUE Christian as President without getting into trouble. Presidents must lie, politicize and posture. President's cannot call a spade a spade. They cannot tell the Truth. They just can't without WWIII breaking out.

Change President to politician, and I whole wholeheartedly agree. I just don't think politics is a viable vocation for a Christian anymore.

[separateunion]

Israel is God's centerpiece.

This, however, I completely disagree with.

[executioner]

I admit it. At first, I was bothered. But, I don't think it should be a big deal. We ALL know who was behind it. We ALL know who took credit for it. So, a rec center with a mosque three or four blocks away isn't going to make us or break us. Heck, why wasn't there a Christian organization putting something there amidst the bunnies shops and donut shops? If there would have been a Christian response, would we be making a big deal about this? I don't know.

The thing is, I had just been in NY one month before, right at the WTC and in the surrounding area. I was to be on a plane to NY on 9-11. I went two or three days later (via Junior Brown's tour bus), and I saw the hole in the wall of the Pentagon. I talked to a number of people that worked around the WTC, and at the gas station/convenience store across from the pentagon. There are too many holes. There are too many unexplainable pics. There are too many broadcasts still on youtube and other places for people to watch now, that completely disagree with what we have been fed as truth. I don't trust our own government.

My father works for one of the largest architectural firms in CA. Their engineering guys did the math on the WTC. The structure was designed to take an airplane hit. The structure was collapsed from the inside out. Again, if you check out the footage from live broadcasts before the collapse, you can hear the demolition explosives going off and the reporters discussing them. There is no way so many people could be tardy for work.

That brings me to another point. I was in Tulsa when the OKC bombing occurred. We had footage of the second dude running down the street, AND live broadcasts of the GOVERNOR of OK saying the correct number of explosions he heard himself. It was not one. All of the security cams were removed, footage removed, and people silenced. We went to church and were friends with an FBI trainer. He and others received pages not to come to work that day. It messed him up so badly that he and his wife eventually divorced and he signed up to go to Iraq to kick some tail.

Sorry Brent I think you've fallin' off your rocker and hit your head; There are WAY TOO MANY people that would have to be involved to pull this off and not a one has spilled the beans yet. Washington is all a bunch of talkers and there is no way everyone that needed to be involved to get this done could still be quiet. Your watching too many spy thrillers in your free time.

[executioner]

Israel is God's centerpiece.

This, however, I completely disagree with.

Sorry Brent is right here!! It all comes down to Israel. IMO the physical state of Israel is the same as the spiritual state of Israel. They go hand in hand through out the Bible and still til this day.

[Jonathan]

About 9/11...do your own research, ask your own questions.

I wonder if the reason "it's crazy" to question the official story about 9/11 or JFK is because you have been conditioned to think that way. Whatever happened, it was evil and it was terrible. I just have more questions that there don't seem to be acceptable answers to. I think the "too many people to keep it quiet" bit is wrong. Given the right level of threats to life and limb and bank account, anyone in DC will keep anything quiet. Not everyone had to know.

The official story, Loose Change, Popular Mechanics have all been debunked and rebunked. No one has or is giving all the answers.

It's not convenient to question the official story. It certainly doesn't bring peace. I'd love for everything to be wrapped up in a neat little package. Now we have nice boogeyman for us to hate and fear and get riled up about: Islam. I'd love to believe that the US government wants/needs to live at peace with the world. I don't know. I wasn't there in the plane or the building or the airport or the war room. Doesn't change who I am.

[CatNamedManny]

This has been a fascinating thread. That's the nicest way I can put it.

On the community center, I think I can find something that should end the debate... Oh, here it is.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Pretty clear to me. They have the right to be there. They didn't have anything to do with 9/11 (otherwise they'd be in jail, or in Guantanamo Bay being tortured for no apparent reason except that Bible Cheney likes it). So let 'em build where they want, as long as they're following the religion-neutral local zoning and building codes, which they are.

Otherwise, we need to start protesting the 60 churches in Pulaski, Tenn., birthplace of the KKK, which, of course, was a terrorist group that claimed to be upholding the traditional values of Protestant Christianity.

[zak89]

Code: Select all

...pretty clear to me. They have the right to be there. They didn't have anything to do with 9/11 (otherwise they'd be in jail, or in Guantanamo Bay being tortured for no apparent reason except that Bible Cheney likes it). So let 'em build where they want, as long as they're following the religion-neutral local zoning and building codes, which they are.

I actually don't have a problem with the "GZM" either - but you're just repeating the standard liberal line here (all of a sudden Liberals are really concerned about religious freedom, eh? Try to build a church near GZ). The argument against the mosque has nothing to do with their Constitutional rights - almost all 'no-mosquers' agree that they have a 'right' to build whatever they want wherever they want. It has to do more with the source of the funding (which is being kept under wraps), the Imam heading up the operation (who is not all that straightforward of a guy), and the sensitivity of the area. No one (that I've heard of) denies their right - but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

Again, I'm not bothered by it - and I don't expect straightforwardness from these guys anyways. But the argument is *not* about the "right" for Muslims to build - so that really doesn't "settle" anything.

[gman]

I understand there is a greek orthodox church is NY that was denied the right to build, and is still unable to build. This case is not about their right to build there, but whether it is a good idea. Are they really trying to build a bridge and trying to reach out to the community, or is this really a monument to victory that will be celebrated throughout the middle east. I don't know.
Why are they dead set on building there, and not willing to consider alternatives?

[brent]

All of this talking and nobody has gotten ugly, or brought up the CIT&S argument.

[zak89]

Pray tell, what is the "Captured in Time & Space" Argument?