Surprised no one talked about this yet

[separateunion]

Israel is God's centerpiece.

This, however, I completely disagree with.

Sorry Brent is right here!! It all comes down to Israel. IMO the physical state of Israel is the same as the spiritual state of Israel. They go hand in hand through out the Bible and still til this day.

Thanks for providing some support for your position.

[separateunion]

It should probably be mentioned that what is actually being planned to be built at Ground Zero is a mall. A freaking MALL! That's a slap to the face of Americans if I've ever seen one.

[brent]

SU, read Revelation. If you think that the nation refered to in Revelation is not Israel but the church, you have one HUGE problem to solve. When does the church gather everyone to one spot of land with a government, army, etc, all below Russia and above China? Come on.

All prophecy about NEW JERUSALEM has Israel as it's centerpiece so we can know where we are in the timeline and see God working.
Heaven comes down where? To Jerusalem.
Where does Jesus set foot on ground?
Where does Jesus stop the great war?
Who does he wipe out?

It's very plain.

[CatNamedManny]

It should probably be mentioned that what is actually being planned to be built at Ground Zero is a mall. A freaking MALL! That's a slap to the face of Americans if I've ever seen one.

Actually, it's pretty much the epitome of American values, isn't it? I find it pretty appropriate.

To respond to another comment further above, I'm not entirely sure what a stock "liberal line" is. I'm pro First Amendment. If that makes me liberal, so be it, though I don't consider that stance to be particularly liberal or conservative. It just is. That means I support the right to burn the flag, and I support the right to protest abortion clinics, among many other things gathered under the protection of that amendment.

I think if any religious group wants to build a community center/house of worship at or near the former site of the World Trade Center, and they have all the zoning clearances and are following all the local laws, then they better be allowed to build there, and frankly the opinion of a bunch of yahoos on a message board (myself included), or a bunch of yahoos in Congress, or a bunch of yahoos on Fox News (redundant, I know), or even the opinion of the president of the United States, simply doesn't matter, doesn't count. It's irrelevant. The "sensitivity" issue is a red herring, not least because the site is not visible from ground zero, is within the same proximity to the site as a topless bar, and is largely unopposed by the local community.

[separateunion]

SU, read Revelation. If you think that the nation refered to in Revelation is not Israel but the church, you have one HUGE problem to solve. When does the church gather everyone to one spot of land with a government, army, etc, all below Russia and above China? Come on.

You're already operating from a faulty premise if you think Russia and China are discussed in Revelation. The problem with dispensationalism/premillenialism is that it interprets things in a way that it has no basis or support for. You could guess that it means that, but you have no certainty. This view allows for no poetic interpretation whatsoever. It completely removes any discussion of the spiritual and assumes that what is being discussed is the physical. Do you think Jesus will literally have a sword coming out of his mouth? Doubtful.

All prophecy about NEW JERUSALEM has Israel as it's centerpiece so we can know where we are in the timeline and see God working.

Why do we need to know when we're in the timeline? What happened to "no one knows the hour or the day"? All these attempts to pinpoint when Christ is coming back is not only a waste of time, but it also turns our attention away from what we should be focusing on: preaching the Gospel.

Heaven comes down where? To Jerusalem.
Where does Jesus set foot on ground?
Where does Jesus stop the great war?
Who does he wipe out?

It's very plain.

Only if you assume that everything in prophecy and everything the Bible discusses is physical and there are no allegorical or spiritual aspects of it. If it's so plain, how come Revelation doesn't come out and say "and there will be a great gathering for the last battle with Russia and China"? I said I disagreed with your interpretation, but I didn't say you were dead wrong. You might want to extend that same courtesy to others and not assume that you have a corner on Biblical interpretation. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people who don't buy into premillenialism, and they have good Scriptural support for why they don't. Closed mindedness is one of the major reasons the mainstream Church is so screwed up to begin with.

It's also interesting to note that the concepts of dispensationalism/premillenialism have only been around for about 200 years. Prior to that, hardly anyone viewed end times prophecy through that lens. I think I'll stick with the church fathers who knew just a little bit more about Scripture than some whacked out modern Christians who have no idea what they're talking about.

[CatNamedManny]

I said I disagreed with your interpretation, but I didn't say you were dead wrong. You might want to extend that same courtesy to others and not assume that you have a corner on Biblical interpretation.

--snip--

I think I'll stick with the church fathers who knew just a little bit more about Scripture than some whacked out modern Christians who have no idea what they're talking about.

Odd juxtaposition of sentiments there.

Of course, Russia and China didn't exist at the time John wrote Revelation, but the geographic regions those nations now inhabit certainly did, and the references to those areas seem clear to me. I'm willing to admit that it's very possible Russia and China won't exist by the time of the end (mostly because I'm unconvinced that we are necessarily all that much closer* to the end than they were in Paul's time, when they stopped working because they were so sure Jesus was coming back soon), but I think it's pretty clear nations inhabiting those regions will play key roles in the end of the world.

*I should say that we're obviously closer by about 2,000 years (duh). But those who use every war or natural disaster as a sign that the end is right around the corner is misinterpreting Jesus' words and intent in Matthew, as well as ignoring the history of the 2,000 years since he spoke those words and now, which were filled with just as much war, disaster and evil as we see today. They just didn't have highly sophisticated, 24-hour media to beam it straight into their living rooms, like we do now.

[separateunion]

Odd juxtaposition of sentiments there.

Of course, Russia and China didn't exist at the time John wrote Revelation, but the geographic regions those nations now inhabit certainly did, and the references to those areas seem clear to me. I'm willing to admit that it's very possible Russia and China won't exist by the time of the end (mostly because I'm unconvinced that we are necessarily all that much closer* to the end than they were in Paul's time, when they stopped working because they were so sure Jesus was coming back soon), but I think it's pretty clear nations inhabiting those regions will play key roles in the end of the world.

*I should say that we're obviously closer by about 2,000 years (duh). But those who use every war or natural disaster as a sign that the end is right around the corner is misinterpreting Jesus' words and intent in Matthew, as well as ignoring the history of the 2,000 years since he spoke those words and now, which were filled with just as much war, disaster and evil as we see today. They just didn't have highly sophisticated, 24-hour media to beam it straight into their living rooms, like we do now.

I'm not saying that they don't play a role because they very well may. I'm disagreeing with brent's assertion that the text speaks very plainly that they do. It doesn't. Revelation does not speak in plain terms at all.

[Jonathan]

Welcome to America. Hopefully you stop for some Freedom Fries.

[cvs2kids]

I love vacationing in America. Due to its size, so much to see in a lifetime.

Last year I got storm stayed in NYC. First time I was there, so we made the most of it. Did a bus tour (sunny, very cold day in Feb) and went down to WTC site. Very eary.

New Yorkers hold the city in a special place in their heart that the rest of us can't understand. NY is a place of its own. They're crazy, rude, obnoxious but love that city to the end. When you intoduced yourself as a tourist, their whole demeanor changed.

I would love to back there in the spring/fall and see more.

[brent]

What color were your drawers after the plane flew by?

[executioner]

What color were your drawers after the plane flew by?

If I'm correct I think he is trying to make a joke about the WTC and 9/11; Look at the date on the camera screen. You just can't let it go and choose to continue to grind that axe.

[brent]

Ohhhh, duh. I see now.

Poor taste.

[separateunion]

What color were your drawers after the plane flew by?

If I'm correct I think he is trying to make a joke about the WTC and 9/11; Look at the date on the camera screen. You just can't let it go and choose to continue to grind that axe.

That picture has been around for awhile. It's not a joke, it's a hoax, and no, I don't think RJ is trying to ridicule 9/11. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

[executioner]

What color were your drawers after the plane flew by?

If I'm correct I think he is trying to make a joke about the WTC and 9/11; Look at the date on the camera screen. You just can't let it go and choose to continue to grind that axe.

That picture has been around for awhile. It's not a joke, it's a hoax, and no, I don't think RJ is trying to ridicule 9/11. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

I understand what it is and have seen it before; but its done in poor taste and in my opinion anyone that chooses to keep putting stuff out there like this is a classless individual. This photo needs to be taken down.

[separateunion]

What color were your drawers after the plane flew by?

If I'm correct I think he is trying to make a joke about the WTC and 9/11; Look at the date on the camera screen. You just can't let it go and choose to continue to grind that axe.

That picture has been around for awhile. It's not a joke, it's a hoax, and no, I don't think RJ is trying to ridicule 9/11. Don't get your panties in a bunch.

I understand what it is and have seen it before; but its done in poor taste and in my opinion anyone that chooses to keep putting stuff out there like this is a classless individual. This photo needs to be taken down.

Why is it classless? Does it make fun of 9/11? And why should the photo be taken down? Are you opposed to free speech?