Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

[Timbo]

It's too bad that John's perfectly good vocals got wasted on those records (No Doubt thru Revival). By the time J&H came out, He was loosing his range. I still say it would have been better for the legacy of the band and enjoyment of the fans if the Wake up call style kept going and somewhere along the way transitioned into the J&H style. But what happened, happened. It's just too bad. They could have put out a lot of good music during that time.

[Timbo]

What's crazy is John's solo record Shake sounded more like a Petra record than some of those mid to late 90's Petra records.

[Timbo]

I guess I'll keep replying to myself. A lot of people think that Petra's downfall happened when No Doubt came out. It actually started back during Unseen Power, and here is why. 1st let me give my "Petra credentials". I knew of Petra back in the 80's. I owned a Beat the System cassette tape. Later in the 80's I heard some stuff from BTTS and This Means War. I became a diehard fan in 1990 when Beyond Belief came out. I saw them once on the Beyond Belief tour, 3 times on Unseen Power, 3 times on Wake up call, once on No Doubt, once on their Greatest hits tour around 99 or 2000 (anyone remember that), and once on the farewell tour. At the 1st Unseen power show they packed a near 50,000 seat arena. The 2nd Unseen power show, in my home town, they packed a 10,000+ seat civic auditorium, which was where I saw them on Beyond belief. Towards the end of the tour I saw them in a small 2,500 seat civic theatre which I thought was odd. Bob said on stage that they wanted to start playing smaller more intimate shows. Back then I thought "ok whatever". From that show on they never played the usual venues that I had seen them in. When they came to my home town they played in a 2000 seat max mega church for Wake up call, No doubt, and Greatest hits. And they were not full. And it's not like Wake up call was a bad record. I have said many times on the zone that I think that was the best record they have done. And of course they won a grammy for that one. Like Bob said on one of the documentary videos, "in the mid 90's Christian rock music had become diverse". I think there were just too may different styles that stole fans away from Petra, so they tried to counteract that with a styalistic departure in No Doubt. But they over compensated and just pushed more fans away I believe.

[Dan]

Timbo, that is exactly what happened...

[brent]

What's crazy is John's solo record Shake sounded more like a Petra record than some of those mid to late 90's Petra records.

BINGO. When I heard John's solo record, I understood whose creativity was NOT being accessed. Dan Huff was great. Too bad he is priced out of the average CCM artists market.

[brent]

I guess I'll keep replying to myself. A lot of people think that Petra's downfall happened when No Doubt came out. It actually started back during Unseen Power, and here is why. 1st let me give my "Petra credentials". I knew of Petra back in the 80's. I owned a Beat the System cassette tape. Later in the 80's I heard some stuff from BTTS and This Means War. I became a diehard fan in 1990 when Beyond Belief came out. I saw them once on the Beyond Belief tour, 3 times on Unseen Power, 3 times on Wake up call, once on No Doubt, once on their Greatest hits tour around 99 or 2000 (anyone remember that), and once on the farewell tour. At the 1st Unseen power show they packed a near 50,000 seat arena. The 2nd Unseen power show, in my home town, they packed a 10,000+ seat civic auditorium, which was where I saw them on Beyond belief. Towards the end of the tour I saw them in a small 2,500 seat civic theatre which I thought was odd. Bob said on stage that they wanted to start playing smaller more intimate shows. Back then I thought "ok whatever". From that show on they never played the usual venues that I had seen them in. When they came to my home town they played in a 2000 seat max mega church for Wake up call, No doubt, and Greatest hits. And they were not full. And it's not like Wake up call was a bad record. I have said many times on the zone that I think that was the best record they have done. And of course they won a grammy for that one. Like Bob said on one of the documentary videos, "in the mid 90's Christian rock music had become diverse". I think there were just too may different styles that stole fans away from Petra, so they tried to counteract that with a styalistic departure in No Doubt. But they over compensated and just pushed more fans away I believe.

They did not WANT to play smaller shows. The demand was gone. People can twist it anyway they want. It is not something to be ashamed of. Nobody can stay at their peak forever. The labels wanted Petra to scale production and prices to match demand. John didn't want to sacrifice production quality. He believed that a rock show with the Petra name on it should live up to the standards it set.

[Mountain Man]

So you mean the perception was that he had left the band and so their popularity started to wane.

I don't know the original poster's intention. My point is merely that when someone doesn't appear in the official photographs and isn't seen on tour, he's not really a member of the band: He's a songwriter and a producer and a studio musician, yes, but not a band member.

No, I understand that. My point is that Bob was just as much involved with the band in the studio as he always had been, he just wasn't going on the road. So for all intents and purposes, he never left the band, he just wasn't as publicly associated with it - though anybody who bothered to read the liner notes would know that he was still a major player in the Petra line-up.

But it comes down to perception. To anybody who wasn't a die hard fan - that is anybody who didn't subscribe to the Petra newsletter or read liner notes - Bob had left and Petra was whoever appeared in publicity photos.

However, I do agree with you that the slump that followed was unfortunate and unnecessary. Petra had lost its popularity and relevance, and the band had no idea how to regain it. Instead of spending the next few years floundering (although I really like the albums from the "slump" years), they should have taken a break, gotten some rest and a fresh perspective, and then come back as the powerhouse band they could have been. Imagine if after "Wake Up Call" they took two- or three-years off and then came back with "Jekyll & Hyde".

[PiedPiper]

I'll start by saying, that I agree that the albums post Unseen Power are not my favorites, (exception J&H) but I have to disagree with the idea that the band should have retired to save some sort of image/legacy.

I'm a big sports fan, and you hear this argument all of the time with professional athletes. Jordan should have never come back as a Washington Wizard. I don't totally agree with that argument, but it makes more sense when you consider the amount of $$ that professional athletes make in their careers.

The members of Petra still have to pay their electric bills after the peak of their careers are over. Why can't they make a living doing what they feel that they are best able to do? Petra sells better than solo albums. Were there not people saved by going to a Petra concerts during the three tours preceeding J&H? I know that we are all fans of the band and want everyone else to put them on the same pedestal that we do, but that's not going to happen regardless of when they stopped touring.

[BriGuyPEI]

I know there's a lot of love for Wake-Up Call on this board, but when I listened to that album when it first came out I thought "That's it. Bob Hartman has run out of songs." I mean, he's down to writing songs about the parable of the ten virgins? And the melodies of several of the songs sound very forced, unnatural and awkward (Strong Convictions, Marks of the Cross, Believer In Deed). And I know Bob didn't write Praying Man, but lyrics like "prayer works when you take the time to pray" are weak. Right up there with Van Hagar's "only time will tell if we stand the test of time". I felt that No Doubt actually redeemed Petra after WUC. There is some good stuff on there though, like Good News, Underneath the Blood, He's Been in My Shoes. Although even that one has some awkward melody in the verses.

As for hanging on too long, I tend to think of Petra less like Michael Jordan and more like Chris Chelios. Dude retired from the NHL this year at age 48. And he spent most of last season in the minors. He kept playing simply because he loves playing hockey. During the lockout a few years ago he played for the "Motor City Mechanics" just so he could keep playing. This is how I view Petra. They kept going regardless of hardship because they loved it so much and because God was leading them to.

I remember not long after No Doubt came out hearing a rumour that Petra was going to release a second praise album and then retire. I didn't put much stock in it. Then when WNJ came out I was wondering. All in all, I'm glad they didn't, even though it would have made sense. I mean, wouldn't you all rather at least have those late-era albums as opposed to no Petra at all?

[Preacherman777]

I don't think WUC is where they lost it at all. That was a very good album. IMO they definitely started to lose ground with No Doubt, but they could have recovered from that if they'd come along with something like Jekyll and Hyde next, but they went through way too many years just putting out praise albums, a fairly weak original album in God Fixation and the real nail in the coffin which was Double Take. Petra deviated way too far from their fan base and lost their relevance. Jekyll and Hyde was an awesome album, it was just too late.

[rexreed]

I was never a huge fan of this album either. I've stated before nut is was so soft, it barely felt like a rock and roll album. Granted Just Reach out sounds really great, there are a lot of real stinkers on the album. That intro at the beginning of Praying Man actually brings the song down and ruins what couds have been a really cool drum or keyboard intro. Overall lame.
Though when WUC came to the Houston area I seem to remember a lot of people were still into Petra, but that could just be because of the large population, there's usually going to be a bigger crowd.

I know there's a lot of love for Wake-Up Call on this board, but when I listened to that album when it first came out I thought "That's it. Bob Hartman has run out of songs." I mean, he's down to writing songs about the parable of the ten virgins? And the melodies of several of the songs sound very forced, unnatural and awkward (Strong Convictions, Marks of the Cross, Believer In Deed). And I know Bob didn't write Praying Man, but lyrics like "prayer works when you take the time to pray" are weak. Right up there with Van Hagar's "only time will tell if we stand the test of time". I felt that No Doubt actually redeemed Petra after WUC. There is some good stuff on there though, like Good News, Underneath the Blood, He's Been in My Shoes. Although even that one has some awkward melody in the verses.

As for hanging on too long, I tend to think of Petra less like Michael Jordan and more like Chris Chelios. Dude retired from the NHL this year at age 48. And he spent most of last season in the minors. He kept playing simply because he loves playing hockey. During the lockout a few years ago he played for the "Motor City Mechanics" just so he could keep playing. This is how I view Petra. They kept going regardless of hardship because they loved it so much and because God was leading them to.

I remember not long after No Doubt came out hearing a rumour that Petra was going to release a second praise album and then retire. I didn't put much stock in it. Then when WNJ came out I was wondering. All in all, I'm glad they didn't, even though it would have made sense. I mean, wouldn't you all rather at least have those late-era albums as opposed to no Petra at all?

[Boray]

And the melodies of several of the songs sound very forced, unnatural and awkward (Strong Convictions, Marks of the Cross, Believer In Deed).

.....What??? That are three very good songs you list there. I think the previous album "Unseen Power" is an album which is a lot weaker melody-wise actually.

[Toby]

I like the first 6 Songs (except No 4) of the No Doubt record. But the rest of the songs are weak in my opinion and just "fillers". "No Doubt" was one of the best Song Bob has ever written.

I was listening to the WUC record this week. I must say, the quality of the record is brillant. Nothing against the Elefante brother's but Brown Banister worked on a much higher level (the first time with "real" drums). The whole record sounds NOT over-produced. Unfortunately they didn't make some more albums with Banister... I think it was about the money... but I'm not sure...

[Preacherman777]

I agree that No Doubt is one of Bob's best songs. I also like More Than A Thousand Words and Heart of Hero. Right Place isn't bad, but it gets old fast. The rest of the album is sub par Petra if you ask me.

[Timbo]

It's all opinions, which is fine. I remember the first time I put the No Doubt cd in the player and started listening to the beginning of enter in. I thought to myself "It's over. After all these years, it's over"