Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

[CatNamedManny]

Don't be offended by what I'm going to say, but I don't read anybody's theses; I do not look or read any theology books written by theologians like Martin Luther, Calvin or others. I get in the Bible and get my beliefs from the understanding of the word of God.

Do you go to church?

Yes, Why do you ask?

I suspect sepunion is, rightly, going to note that if you go to church and listen to the preacher, then you are in fact getting someone else's interpretation of the word of God. It's no different than reading Luther or Lucado's take on the Bible and studying it, except that it's easier to take the time to check it against what the Bible actually says when you're reading their interpretation rather than listening to a preacher rush through a 20-minute sermon.

[BForm]

Right! Why does God's Word tell us He gives us Pastors, teachers, etc., etc., for the edification of the body if we don't really need them? When John said we "have no need of someone to teach us" he was reacting to the gnostic heresy that claimed to have wisdom that would only come via special revelation apart from the Word of God. John was saying we have no need of this "wisdom".

Personally I think Camp was right on with his Thesis. Also, though I have some issues with MacArthur, mostly delivery rather than content, his contribution to the church in this era has been incredible. As far as the chip on Camp's shoulder, I'm sure there were a lot of people that thought Jesus and Paul had chips on their shoulders as well.

I'm sorry guys, call me angry all you want. But 90% of what I see going on in the name of Christ is a mockery to the power of God. Everywhere I look I see the wisdom of men being favored over the word of God when it comes to youth ministry and church growth. I have three children (26,23,18) that have grown up in youth ministry in the some of the biggest evangelical churches in the Atlanta area. I'm convinced it was all a waste of time. We need more prophets sending out a "Wake Up Call".

I talked to a young man that was a youth Pastor in a mega church for two years. Here's a summary of what he just said to me: "Bill, I spent two years incorporating the latest in technology, drama and all of the culturally relevant methods of connecting with youth I could find. After two years I realized it was all a waste and was producing no fruit. The ONLY thing that worked was two troubled young men that discipled during that time. I was hard on them, kept bringing to the Word of God to bear on their lives, and slowly watched them grown. Everything else was just a waste of time."

Yet this is exactly what it appears all churches in our area are settling for. My 18 year daughter is dismayed right now. She has a large group of friends that she grew up with from 3 different youth groups. Conservatively, over 70% of them have fornicated and many are pregnant. Someone please, please START GETTING ANGRY and speak out against this insanity.

Keith Green was not just passionate about unrighteousness. He was angry too.

[BForm]

Good point. Now you need 4 more to have a complete set.

[pmal]

Getting angry:

Yes, there's a time to get angry, but I won't lose any sleep if someone isn't a 5 point Calvinist.

Ok, so this thread has been hijacked Let's start a topic on this in the other forum. Which of the five points do you disagree with?

[Preacherman777]

Keith got his ire up occasionally, just as Jesus did, but it wasn't the way he came across most of the time. What he was, was a very effective preacher and modern prophet. Cutting to the heart of the issues like few people could and making people uncomfortable in their cozy Christian apathy. He compelled us to examine ourselves, just a Paul said we should, and then take action to change things. I've seen Keith preach and teach and anger was rarely how he came across.

Yes, there's a time to get angry, but I won't lose any sleep if someone isn't a 5 point Calvinist.

Amen to that.

[separateunion]

I suspect sepunion is, rightly, going to note that if you go to church and listen to the preacher, then you are in fact getting someone else's interpretation of the word of God. It's no different than reading Luther or Lucado's take on the Bible and studying it, except that it's easier to take the time to check it against what the Bible actually says when you're reading their interpretation rather than listening to a preacher rush through a 20-minute sermon.

That was going to be my first point. My second point was going to be that any pastor worth his salt has studied theologians and is constantly reading commentaries (written by theologians), so anyone who goes to church is, in essence, being taught through "theologians". Not to mention, many of the Biblical beliefs we hold aren't because we decided for ourselves that the Bible said such and such, but because that is what Christians have believed since the beginning of time. If it wasn't for the early church, would we know that the Last Supper meant that God wanted the Church to partake in communion during service?

The Bible is not something that we can just divine interpretation out of for ourselves without any other input. God gave us church and Christian community to help us make sure that our interpretations are correct, thus we do rely somewhat on tradition, and part of tradition is what other pastors/teachers/theologians already knew about Scripture.

EDIT: I also meant to add that just reading the Bible alone will not be enough if someone doesn't also look at history and grammar. It's important to know why certain language was used and what the history surrounding that passage was. Why does Paul speak specifically to each church with his letters? Was it just some random way of discussing proper church government and the Christian life, or was each letter written specifically to an issue that each individual church had? Here's a good example:

"Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Ephesisans 4:25-30

Notice that in this passage, Paul is calling the Ephesians to quit their sins because they are new men in Christ. However, he speaks in very broad terms about putting away sin EXCEPT when it comes to thievery. Why does he go out of his way to speak specifically to what a thief should do? Why not murderers or fornicators or cheaters? Someone approaching this section without any background on the history of Ephesus would probably not know that Ephesus was well known for the nearby mountain ranges where bandits roamed. So, Paul had a specific reason for bringing up thievery. Many of the members of the church in Ephesus were most likely former bandits and Paul was speaking specifically to them. This is why it is important to not just study the Bible, but also to study those who have spent their entire lives studying the Bible, as well as having an understanding of the history, use of grammar, society, etc. surrounding the Scriptures that were written.

[separateunion]

Getting angry:

Yes, there's a time to get angry, but I won't lose any sleep if someone isn't a 5 point Calvinist.

Ok, so this thread has been hijacked Let's start a topic on this in the other forum. Which of the five points do you disagree with?

I don't think he disagrees with any of them. I think he's saying that he won't lose sleep if someone else disagrees with one of them.

[Preacherman777]

I'll fill the gap for ya. I disagree with all of them.

[pmal]

I'll fill the gap for ya. I disagree with all of them.

You believe people are in charge and not God? If I believed that, I would lose sleep at night.

[Preacherman777]

You believe people are in charge and not God? If I believed that, I would lose sleep at night.

No, it's not like that. God gives free will to man. It's certainly not something he has in and of himself. Man has nothing in and of himself. There is no question God is sovereign, but it doesn't work the way Calvinists would like to think it does. Free will was defended vigorously by the earliest church fathers, well before Augustine and way, way before Calvin.

[pmal]

No, it's not like that. God gives free will to man. It's certainly not something he has in and of himself. Man has nothing in and of himself. There is no question God is sovereign, but it doesn't work the way Calvinists would like to think it does. Free will was defended vigorously by the earliest church fathers, well before Augustine and way, way before Calvin.

Then how does it work? If man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick (Jer. 17:9), man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20), man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12), and man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14), then why would man ever choose God? Romans 9 clearly shows that God is in charge of who chooses Him and who does not. He used Jacob and Esau as an example. Before they were born and had done nothing good or bad, God told Rebekkah that the younger (Jacob) ruled over the older (Esau). This was done "in order that God's purpose in election might stand". "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

[separateunion]

God gives free will to man.

Do you have any Scriptural support for this?

Free will was defended vigorously by the earliest church fathers, well before Augustine and way, way before Calvin.

Calvinism existed in various forms prior to Calvin and has been debated since the times of the early church fathers.

[executioner]

I suspect sepunion is, rightly, going to note that if you go to church and listen to the preacher, then you are in fact getting someone else's interpretation of the word of God. It's no different than reading Luther or Lucado's take on the Bible and studying it, except that it's easier to take the time to check it against what the Bible actually says when you're reading their interpretation rather than listening to a preacher rush through a 20-minute sermon.

That was going to be my first point. My second point was going to be that any pastor worth his salt has studied theologians and is constantly reading commentaries (written by theologians), so anyone who goes to church is, in essence, being taught through "theologians". Not to mention, many of the Biblical beliefs we hold aren't because we decided for ourselves that the Bible said such and such, but because that is what Christians have believed since the beginning of time. If it wasn't for the early church, would we know that the Last Supper meant that God wanted the Church to partake in communion during service?

The Bible is not something that we can just divine interpretation out of for ourselves without any other input. God gave us church and Christian community to help us make sure that our interpretations are correct, thus we do rely somewhat on tradition, and part of tradition is what other pastors/teachers/theologians already knew about Scripture.

EDIT: I also meant to add that just reading the Bible alone will not be enough if someone doesn't also look at history and grammar. It's important to know why certain language was used and what the history surrounding that passage was. Why does Paul speak specifically to each church with his letters? Was it just some random way of discussing proper church government and the Christian life, or was each letter written specifically to an issue that each individual church had? Here's a good example:

"Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Ephesisans 4:25-30

Notice that in this passage, Paul is calling the Ephesians to quit their sins because they are new men in Christ. However, he speaks in very broad terms about putting away sin EXCEPT when it comes to thievery. Why does he go out of his way to speak specifically to what a thief should do? Why not murderers or fornicators or cheaters? Someone approaching this section without any background on the history of Ephesus would probably not know that Ephesus was well known for the nearby mountain ranges where bandits roamed. So, Paul had a specific reason for bringing up thievery. Many of the members of the church in Ephesus were most likely former bandits and Paul was speaking specifically to them. This is why it is important to not just study the Bible, but also to study those who have spent their entire lives studying the Bible, as well as having an understanding of the history, use of grammar, society, etc. surrounding the Scriptures that were written.

My point was totally missed by you. All I ever said I choose to read the Scriptures over anything else. When we get in the wrong here is when we start replacing the Scriptures with the words from these men.
You actually did your response in the correct form by backing up your idea and words with Scripture which is rarely done around here and even in churches for the most now a days.

Now the reason why I have a problem with Steve Camp is that he seems to go off on a rant about these artists and people are doing this wrong, but he never brings the Gospel into the picture. to me he sounds like he has hard feelings towards someone who did him wrong.

[Timbo]

Here are some words backed up by scripture. And this is really all that matters as far as what we are commanded to tell people:

God’s story as it relates to His plan and purpose for mankind on earth

Creation
In the beginning God created all that is including man. God created man to fellowship and have a relationship with. Genesis 1:1, Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 2:7, John 1:1-3

The Fall of man
Man’s sin has separated all humanity from God and destroyed the fellowship of the created order which God had designed. In Adam, all humans find themselves to be sinners against the True and Holy God both by
nature and by choice. Romans 5:12, 16, 18. Romans 3:23. Romans 3:10-12. Psalm 14:1-3

Also, Because God is perfect and Heaven is a perfect place, no sin can be present there. So because we are
sinners we will spend an eternity apart from God in hell which is the penalty that we deserve for our sins.
Romans 6:23, Matthew 13:49-50

Redemption
In God’s grace, He did not forsake us to our sin with no hope of being made right with Himself, but through
God given faith in the Person and Work of Jesus Christ alone for our redemption and salvation, God has
indeed given us the most precious gift that goes beyond the limits of human intellect and comprehension.
Romans 5:8, Romans 5:15-17, 20.

Here is the Gift that God has given us to receive. Jesus, the one and only Son of God, who is equal to God and is God, came down to this earth in human form to die a brutal and painful death on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. He rose from the grave and is alive today in heaven. Isaiah 53:5, Romans 5:8, Romans 10:9

For those who believe this truth and, out of appreciation for this extraordinary free gift of the forgiveness of sin, surrender their lives completely to God (Romans 12:1-2), He has provided us with the following:
Faith to believe– Ephesians 2:8-9
Forgiveness of sin– Ephesians 1:7, Colossians 1:13-14
Remission of sin– Romans 3:23-25
Reconciliation to Himself - Romans 5:11, Colossians 1: 20-22
New life– 2 Corinthians 5:17
Made Righteous– Romans 10:3-4, 1 Corinthians 1:30, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Philippians 3:9
Eternal life– Romans 6:23, Romans 5:21, 1 Peter 5:10
The Hope of the Resurrection– 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Corinthians 15:56-57

Consummation
It is clear that all of human history is wrapped up in God’s grand story. Indeed, Gods work has always been looking toward the consummation of His plan and purpose for His name and His people.
Romans 8:28-30, 38-39

As God has been faithful in all of his promises in Christ Jesus, so shall he be faithful in his promise of the
completion of his gracious salvation for us. Vindication belongs to God and will be exercised at the return of the Son. God’s name will be vindicated. God’s people will be vindicated. God will complete our redemption. God will dwell among men on the new earth and humanity and all of creation will be given the promised rest and peace that is to be found in all things being made new and in right relationship with the triune God. Things will be as they should be apart from any effect of sin, and the name of our Lord and Savior will be
blessed, honored, and glorified.
Revelation 5:1-14, Revelation 21:1-6

[BForm]

.....but it doesn't work the way Calvinists would like to think it does.

That's where you would be mistaken. I've met very few Calvinists who believe this because they WANT to. In fact, most have come to this conclusion after wrestling with the scriptures, sometimes with a lot of anxiety and for a long time. For me personally it took 20 years. On several occasions throughout those 20 years I would take key passages to Pastors, seminary Prof's, etc. looking for something that could convince me God wasn't saying what it clearly appeared He was. I wanted answers that were satisfying but could never find them.

Then, after a fight in Sunday School class erupted over God's role in 9/11/01, a friend recommended John Piper's Desiring God. After reading that book, often with tears in my eyes even while traveling on planes, I finally found peace. I not only accepted a reformed view of salvation, but also embraced it. Once I had begun to understand why it is such a holy thing for God to put His full Glory on display for all to see and love, believing in election was no longer a problem.

By the way, because of how much of a struggle it was for me, I'm very patient with those who don't accept it. However, I am very often hated from the moment someone finds out what I believe. I have personally witnessed several situtations, both before and after I came to a reforemed view, where a lone Calvinist was absolutely devoured by people who hate this theology.