Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

[brent]

There was panel discussion on one of the "Christian" networks (not TBN) where John Mac normally broadcasts. He, R.C. and about 5 other broadcasting types were taking questions from the audience about doctrine, theology, ethics, etc. This is where I got the info about John not liking and being against CCM. R.C. is of course into the symbolism of the old cathedrals, the art, stained glass, etc. He is very much into the rituals of the past. He is ok with CCM, just not in the church. He thinks that it should not replace the hymns and their doctrine (which I somewhat agree with), and that the night club church with a coffee bar is not suitable.

John Mac's study bible has a few statements that lead to the o.s. a. s. confusion.

[executioner]

Well just about all of you proved my point. This discussion has go.e on now for a few days, and only one or two of you have brought any Scriptures to the table. You all sit here and argue what and why imperfect men believe what they believe. These men are dead and gone, and most of them were confused about what they believed, which imo says a lot about all of you. I would. Like to hear what you all believe but if your beliefs are not Scripture based and you just sit here and quote this guy believed this and this believed that, then your just wasting everyone's time including your own.

[Preacherman777]

Well, I'd be happy to provide scriptures for what I believe, but I have a feeling it would just be an invitation for the Calvinists here to smell blood in the water, so I think I'd rather not have to deal with that. As I said before, if anyone really wants to get into the nuts and bolts with me, they can do it by PM.

[executioner]

Well, I'd be happy to provide scriptures for what I believe, but I have a feeling it would just be an invitation for the Calvinists here to smell blood in the water, so I think I'd rather not have to deal with that. As I said before, if anyone really wants to get into the nuts and bolts with me, they can do it by PM.

Understandable, there are some around here that will flame you if you don't believe exactly what they believe.
I would hate to be a follower of Calvin especially since he never seemed to be 100% secure in his salvation. Even near death he questioning if he would truly be joined with God.

[Preacherman777]

Personally, I have a great respect for Wesley and Luther, but don't agree with either of them on everything. I have less respect for Calvin due to the kind of man he was. Calvin was a theological giant, as were Luther and Wesley, but even the giants get it wrong sometimes. They are no better than we are. They are just men. There Bibles are no bigger and their level of humanity is no smaller. Anything they were, we could be, and given their flaws, hopefully we can learn from them and do better.

[separateunion]

This is where I got the info about John not liking and being against CCM.

Did he say he was against it because he thought rock music was evil or because he thinks the industry is a sham? Because I'd agree with the latter.

John Mac's study bible has a few statements that lead to the o.s. a. s. confusion.

Well, perseverance of the saints is different than once saved always saved. Calvinists view salvation differently. Saying the sinners prayer isn't what saves you; that's why you have all these people who have "come to Christ", but then slide back into their heathen ways. I don't have his study Bible, but I'd imagine he doesn't believe in once saved always saved in the Baptist sense, but he does agree with perseverance of the saints.

[separateunion]

Well just about all of you proved my point. This discussion has go.e on now for a few days, and only one or two of you have brought any Scriptures to the table. You all sit here and argue what and why imperfect men believe what they believe. These men are dead and gone, and most of them were confused about what they believed, which imo says a lot about all of you. I would. Like to hear what you all believe but if your beliefs are not Scripture based and you just sit here and quote this guy believed this and this believed that, then your just wasting everyone's time including your own.

1) There are a lot of givens about Scripture that don't need to be redundantly stated when discussing Biblical issues.

2) Since people have simply been stating their theological position and not really getting into depth with it, pulling out Scripture has been unnecessary thus far. (I've yet to see you pull out any Scripture, so maybe you should stop throwing stones.)

3) These "imperfect men" were not confused about what they believe. If it wasn't for them, we might not have the Protestant church or Bibles in English. These are men who spent their entire lives studying Scripture, not just a half hour a day and an hour and a half church service on Sundays. Apparently, you're wasting your time by going to church on Sundays, since "imperfect men" tell you their view of Scripture. Also, who has quoted any theologians in this thread?

[corolla1]

Separate Union,

What is the difference between once saved, always saved and perseverence of the saints? Ultimately, aren't they one and the same?

It must have been cool to go to John MacArthur's church for awhile. Did you like it?

[brent]

SU...Honestly, I cannot recall John Macs complete explanation. There was NO biblical support given for his position. I DO recall that much. He did not speak of the industry. It was all about the music and the message. I remember being shocked that RC was cool with it. Those two were sitting next to each other. John looked at RC like, "Huh?". The debate was short, very lite and left to the listener to pray and discern.

[BForm]

For those of you who are watching this debate and not speaking, I hope you're seeing something here. I and others on this thread have been very gentle about our beliefs concerning God's sovereignty in election, yet look at the insults that have been hurled back us. We're accused of "flaming anyone that disagrees", "smelling blood", and accused of listening to confused people which "says something about you" according to one. I've heard no such insults coming from us. This is exactly the same scenario I've seen many times over.

I didn't reference scripture directly because there is no way to do justice to all of the scripture on this topic in a few minutes. I did, however, reference an article that is filled with scripture references and explanations that I found overwhelming. Here it is again for anyone interested:

Are There Two Wills in God?
Devine Election and God's Desire for All To Be Save
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-lib ... lls-in-god

This was written by John Piper. For those of you who haven't heard, watched or read John Piper, he is, without a doubt, one of the most compassionate and passionate preachers you will ever hear. Certainly not the flame thrower us reformed people are accused of being.

By the way, I am not a follower of Calvin. Calvin taught a lot of things I do not believe. I do, however, believe the 5 points articulate biblical truth well with one slight distinction; I believe God effectively elects to save some but desires to save all, in the same way that God elected to have Christ suffer, though He surely didn't desire it apart from the fruit it would bring.

Brent, the joke about "Superfundamentalistic Eschatologosis" was not seriously directed at you. I hope you don't think I was referring to you as a fundy.

[Preacherman777]

The blood in the water comment was not meant as an insult. There are certainly some Calvinists here who seem very eager to debate. Personally, I don't feel like getting into it on this forum and especially not on threads that have nothing to do with the issue. I just meant I don't want to give those who are eager anything to perk their interest. I have debated with Calvinists for years and I have seen some very unfortunate, arrogant and elitist behavior from many of them, so let's not try to paint them as perfect little angels with halos, especially while trying to paint those who disagree as being bad. Some people just don't respond well to being patronized.

[separateunion]

SU...Honestly, I cannot recall John Macs complete explanation. There was NO biblical support given for his position. I DO recall that much. He did not speak of the industry. It was all about the music and the message. I remember being shocked that RC was cool with it. Those two were sitting next to each other. John looked at RC like, "Huh?". The debate was short, very lite and left to the listener to pray and discern.

I'll have to see if I can find anything about what Johnny Mac believes. I'm not surprised RC is cool with it; Reformed peeps tend to be much less legalistic than the Christianity I grew up with.

[separateunion]

Separate Union,

What is the difference between once saved, always saved and perseverence of the saints? Ultimately, aren't they one and the same?

In one sense, yes. However, if we distill it down to Arminian and Calvinist viewpoints, the Arminian who believes in once saved, always saved would say that anyone who has ever said the sinner's prayer is saved from that point on, regardless of what the do later. From a Calvinist perspective, saying a sinner's prayer is not necessarily enough, as some people are not sincere and some don't really know what they're getting themselves into. Being a Christian is one thing, but you can be an apostate Christian when judgment day comes, and you will not be considered a saint. Perseverance of the saints means that those who are saved cannot lose their salvation, but just saying a prayer does not guarantee it.

It must have been cool to go to John MacArthur's church for awhile. Did you like it?

I've got a friend who lives down there, and I visited it with her. I disagree with him on a few theological points, but I love his honesty and bluntness when it comes to preaching the gospel. He is a very intelligent and excellent speaker. His church, however, is way to big for me to ever feel comfortable in. I prefer a more intimate church setting.

[separateunion]

I didn't reference scripture directly because there is no way to do justice to all of the scripture on this topic in a few minutes.

To add to this, when you tell someone you are a Christian, do you pull out a stack of notes with Scriptural references to explain to them what that means? I highly doubt it. No one here has gotten into any serious discussion that needs Biblical backing AT THIS POINT. We've simply stated our positions. I don't see the need to write a thesis containing references to explain that.

[bakersfieldpethead]

but just saying a prayer does not guarantee it.

I agree with this. You have to be sincere from your heart that you repent of your sins, because true repentance is a willingness to be changed from what you are being saved from, if you’re perfect already, what was the need for Christ?