Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Talk about Petra albums, songs, and concerts.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by Preacherman777 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:55 pm

the Arminian who believes in once saved, always saved would say that anyone who has ever said the sinner's prayer is saved from that point on, regardless of what the do later.
I'm not an Arminian, but I know their beliefs well enough to know that's not even close to what they believe. First of all, an Arminian does not typically believe "once saved always saved" at all and they sure don't believe that once you say a sinners prayer, you're good to go no matter what you do later in life. That would be much more akin to antinomianism or the Free Grace movement as it tends to be known in our modern day. Keith Green was an Arminian. If you study his teachings you will find that he was very big on preaching about false conversions and the destructiveness of placing your hope in a sinners prayer. Keith wrote the following statement in one of his articles.
I believe that a true "sinner's prayer" will gush out of anyone who is truly seeking God and is tired of being enslaved to sin. (Matt. 5:6) The very act of "leading someone in a prayer" is utterly ridiculous. You will find nothing even remotely like it in the Bible, or among the writings and biographies of those in Church history. It completely savors of crowd and peer pressure tactics, and (please forgive me) brainwashing techniques. I do not believe that Jesus wants to have His disciples "repeat after Me," I believe He wants them to follow after Him!
Charles Finney (another Arminian) also taught along these same lines.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:03 am

Sadly this where televangelism has corrupted the Church, I’ve seen minister after minister do a mass salvation prayer, like wise they now do the same thing with being filled with the Holy Ghost, but no where in the Bible did it say that someone had to tell them they were saved, or tell them they were filled.

When you’re truly delivered from sin, you’ll know it.
When you’re filled with the Holy Ghost, you’ll know it.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:35 pm

With everything that has gone on since the Farewell tour, II Guys, John Schlitt Petra coming back with a different drummer, Classic Petra trying to get off the ground, has Petra tarnished there legacy?

After the Farewell tour, do you think Bob should have said, thats it no more Petra of any kind and left it at that?

I love Petra just as much, if not more than some of you, but it is starting to get a little silly seeing everything that has gone on since the band "retired". I just hope they don't ruin the legacy that they have built.
I agree that there is a little bit of confusion regarding of Petra in general. I think all of this is a good thing with Classic Petra, but here’s how I think it probably should have been done.

PETRA should have never “officially” retired, albeit at the time they probably felt like it was completely over from that point on. “Farewell” could have easily been under a different title this is where a lot of bands make mistakes because when it comes to music, some things are never finally over until one person or two people are dead, The Eagles proved that. Then even at that “The Who” toured with just 3 guys after Keith Moon died and then with 2 guys after the bass player died, so really it can never really be over-over until enough people are no longer able to do it.

ll Guys from Petra should have never been the title. Should have been PETRA’s 4th Praise Album and yes better songs should have been picked.

So this should have been for the concerts after Farewell.

PETRA The Unplugged Tour, should have been the tour with Bob and John being that they played old Petra hits as well as the songs from VE.

PETRA special appearances in 2010.

PETRA “Back to the Rock”: instead of “Classic Petra” they should have just brought it back as “PETRA” a full on recording and tour of “PETRA” with no “Classic” attached, because in essence these guys are PETRA also and were PETRA before the John years ever took place.

So if you look at is as just “PETRA” and throw the retirement announcement out, “ll guys from” out and take off the name “Classic” then there is no confusion…..lol

However this not what happened, they did retire, then came back for some shows and now re-formed an older version of the band with and altered name.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:04 pm

We can speculate what the world thinks of Petra but it won’t get us anywhere.
I think the better questions we can ask here are.

Has Petra’s Legacy been tarnished to you?

What has it done for you?

Has it changed your opinion or love for Petra in anyway?

As long as your opinion matters to you about it, why does it matter what the World thinks.

If Petra considers their selves a ministry first then there is no reason for the desire to want the world’s acceptance, especially when Christ said “They’ll hate you, because they hate me” and if they are doing this with Christ living in them, the world will never like it because the world will never love Christ regardless.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:17 pm

No, no, no, the real question is, were they predestined to retire and then produce II Guys followed by a reunion PLUS classic Petra?
I don’t believe predestination is a factor; we have a free will of our own and can often make choices thinking it is God’s will but in fact we ended up making that choice on our own free will.

God’s will could have been “PETRA” but their own decisions could have been the reason behind the direction of Farewell, ll Guys, Reunion, Classic. However, this is not the real question because there are no answers, only speculation on our part. We don’t know the will of God regarding Petra because we are not PETRA, we are PETHEADS. We are of the band, not in it.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by Preacherman777 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:23 pm

I think the were they predestined question was probably meant as a joke due to dual nature of this thread.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by corolla1 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:30 pm

Preacherman,

I thought Charles Finney started the whole sinners prayer nonsense in the first place. I don't believe in leading someone in a sinners prayer either.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by separateunion » Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:53 pm

corolla1 wrote:I thought Charles Finney started the whole sinners prayer nonsense in the first place. I don't believe in leading someone in a sinners prayer either.
He did. That and revival meetings/altar calls.

And what I said about once saved, always saved comes from my 20+ years of experience in Arminian churches. If that's not what some Arminians believe, fine, but it is what I was taught growing up.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by bakersfieldpethead » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:58 pm

I think the were they predestined question was probably meant as a joke due to dual nature of this thread.
Yes, but I thought that maybe you would be predestined to tell me that, so I didn't want stop God's plan. :)
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by Preacherman777 » Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:43 pm

And what I said about once saved, always saved comes from my 20+ years of experience in Arminian churches. If that's not what some Arminians believe, fine, but it is what I was taught growing up.
Well, if they were teaching that, then they weren't teaching Arminian theology, regardless of what they called themselves.

As for the sinners prayer stuff, I was talking about what Keith Green said on that not Finney. I only mentioned Finney because he also had a lot to say about true and false conversions.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by separateunion » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:39 am

Preacherman777 wrote:I only mentioned Finney because he also had a lot to say about true and false conversions.
Believing in false conversions doesn't mean that once can't believe in once saved, always saved the way I defined it.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by Preacherman777 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:56 am

Oh, trust me, Finney did not believe once saved always saved. Read up on him if you need to confirm that. In 1610, when the follower of Jacob Arminius put together the The Five Articles of the Remonstrants (to which the five points of Calvinism TULIP was later a response) the fifth point had this to say...
Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]
That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.

These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary or edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.

The Articles of the Remonstrants are adapted from Phillip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Volume 3, Baker Books, Grand Rapids, 1996, pp 545ff.
Now while they did not state (at this time) with any certainty that salvation could be lost, they did leave open the possibility. Arminius, himself, said that "I never taught that a true believer can… fall away from the faith… yet I will not conceal, that there are passages of Scripture which seem to me to wear this aspect; and those answers to them which I have been permitted to see, are not of such as kind as to approve themselves on all points to my understanding."

John Wesley is really the one who picked up the ball and more fully developed Arminianism as we have it today and his view of the issue was as follows.... Wesley fully accepted the Arminian view that genuine Christians could apostatize and lose their salvation, as his famous sermon "A Call to Backsliders" clearly demonstrates. Harper summarizes as follows: "the act of committing sin is not in itself ground for the loss of salvation...the loss of salvation is much more related to experiences that are profound and prolonged. Wesley sees two primary pathways that could result in a permanent fall from grace: unconfessed sin and the actual expression of apostasy." Wesley disagrees with Arminius, however, in maintaining that such apostasy was not final. When talking about those who have made "shipwreck" of their faith (1 Tim 1:19), Wesley claims that "not one, or a hundred only, but I am persuaded, several thousands...innumerable are the instances...of those who had fallen but now stand upright."

So you see, so serious was it to the Calvinists that Arminius left open even the possibility that one could fall from grace, that they responded with their doctrine, The Perseverance of the Saints. Every significant Arminian theologian that I know of has believed and taught at least the possibility that the true believer can become apostate.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by separateunion » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:57 pm

Preacherman777 wrote:Every significant Arminian theologian that I know of has believed and taught at least the possibility that the true believer can become apostate.
Again, once saved, always saved does not mean that believers cannot be apostate. Nor does perseverance of the saints say that being "saved" means that you can never lose your salvation (although being elect does). I think the issue that we're going to run into on this topic is how one defines saved and at what point someone is saved.

Regardless, Finney did start altar calls, which led to a ton of false conversions.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by Preacherman777 » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:13 pm

I never said Finney didn't start alter calls. Again, I was talking about Keith Green's opposition to alter calls and the sinners prayer, not Finney. Regardless of that, Finney was very clear in teaching that not everyone who says Lord, Lord is really saved. I actually did a sermon on this very point not more than a year ago. Finney very clearly defined the differences between a true and false convert. Perseverance of the Saints teaches that the true believer or convert will not fall, and that if they do fall, they were not truly saved. Now there are things in the scriptures that prevent me from believing that, although I will say that those who will persevere are already known and therefore already justified and glorified and have been from before the foundation of the world.
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Re: Not bashing Petra, just an honest question.

Post by CatNamedManny » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:13 am

bakersfieldpethead wrote:ll Guys from Petra should have never been the title. Should have been PETRA’s 4th Praise Album and yes better songs should have been picked.

So this should have been for the concerts after Farewell.

PETRA The Unplugged Tour, should have been the tour with Bob and John being that they played old Petra hits as well as the songs from VE.

PETRA special appearances in 2010.

PETRA “Back to the Rock”: instead of “Classic Petra” they should have just brought it back as “PETRA” a full on recording and tour of “PETRA” with no “Classic” attached, because in essence these guys are PETRA also and were PETRA before the John years ever took place.

So if you look at is as just “PETRA” and throw the retirement announcement out, “ll guys from” out and take off the name “Classic” then there is no confusion…..lol
I actually agree with this quite a bit; it's kind of what I did with the Petra Wikipedia page, where I put Vertical Expressions and Back to the Rock as albums in the list just like the rest, only under the heading "Reunions." VE is arguably more "Petra" than any Petra album between Wake Up Call and Jekyll and Hyde, given that it actually has a founding member of the band on it.

Meanwhile, a serious question: Why did the off-topic politics thread get shut down after two pages, while the off-topic religion thread has gone on and on? Off topic is off topic, no?
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