The Noise We Make: Question

[knotodiswrld]

There are LOOOOOTS of bands that have albums sans members playing on them. This is very common.

Then I think LOOOOOOTS of bands have perpetrated fraud on the consumer. This is wrong. It should not happen.

Louie played loops and over-dubbed. Louie just didn't play what he wanted to play completely. He augmented progeammed drums and in many cases did not play at all. Sometimes it was out of necessity, convenience and budgetary needs. Bands often have songs produced for them while touring.

As far as Louie showing up to the studio...who said that he did not want to? Who said that he did not want to rehearse? Do you think Louie WANTED to do anything other than Petra? Do you think he wanted to hold down multiple jobs between gigs? Louie was not an equal partner in Petra. He was hired gun. While John and Bob were able to leverage assets and future royalties to secure funds to live, the other guys could not. So, when there was no pay, there was no play. There have been numerous discussions about this. I have heard three sides of this story and two line up, so I know whom I believe in.

Now, if all the playing was actually Louie's, but was electronically manipulated so that he didn't actually have to be there for all of it, that's different. I'm still not sure if you're saying, "Some if it was someone else playing," or if you're saying, "It's Louie playing, just not necessarily a whole song and not necessarily in the same time and place as John/Greg was singing".

If it's still Louie playing, then that isn't misrepresentation. That's like saying, "100% orange juice from concentrate". I mean, it's still orange juice; you've just taken some steps to help the distribution process. And honestly, with today's technology, why DOES a band all have to be in the same studio to record an album. It seems to me they could each be in the comfort of their own home with the proper equipment and record whatever they want.

But if it's not Louie, then none of what you've said changes the basic fact that it all amounts to misrepresentation. I realize it's common practice in the music industry, just as it is common practice in the Bail Enforcement industry to enter homes by force without a search warrant. That doesn't make it right.

Lets not assume that Louie was in total control of his own destiny.

Granted. If I have one beef with Petra, it centers around that whole situation. But all that really does is shift liability. It means that any misrepresentation going on was not ultimately Louie's fault.

Look, I love Petra. And I admire John and Bob ... and for that matter Louie. And I'm sure it never occurred to any of them that this was "misrepresentation". That's the problem with spending your whole life in a particular industry. The standards of that industry start to define "right" and "wrong" for you without your even realizing it. All I'm saying is that when a band, any band, lists a particular person as playing a particular instrument, but it's actually someone else on the CD/tape/LP doing the music, then its misrepresentation.

[brent]

I would not think of it as misrepresentation per se.

I mean, there are practically no commercial records made without manipulation. This is an age old question in the industry is: When is too far too far? This is a real moral issue for some. Really, by the time an engineer and producer have taken on a project, the artists and projects have been changed. Some artists can not read or write music, making success on a third party's songs. So, can we cherry pick who can change the artist and by how much?

Is a little EQ on a voice too far? The artist may not sound good without it on a particular song, mic, tape machine, DAW, comp, etc.
Most drums today have samples mixed in or have the drum sounds replaced completely, because it is too expensive to book a real room, with real drums, a real drum tech, a week or so in studio time to find the right mics for the drums and drummer....there is more to it than what people know. There simply aren't a huge number of really good drummers on par with the major session cats, who can get in and get out. There just isn't enough money in some cases to do real drums. There isn't enough patience to put up with a real drummer. Sometimes you have to pick your battles. If you make the record right, people will not be able to tell. Like I said in another post, the AVERAGE person is musically ignorant and could not tell a difference. The average person cares about the song, which is the selling point for Petra from day one.

[bakersfieldpethead]

knotodiswrld I really think this is not a fight worth fighting. You have to understand the wording of credits on an album.

If a cover says, "PETRA IS" and the lists it's members and what they do, then it's truthfuly telling you who is a member of the band, not who played on the album.

However if the album clearly states in production credits who played on the projects such as Produced by: (producers name) Engineered by: (engineers name) Drums and Percussion by: Louie Weaver........then that is telling you who played on the album.

I'll have to look at my copy of Beat the System and see how it's worded, but the above is normaly how things are worded and it's not misrepresentation. PETRA was the members listed on the cover; they were touring, they called themselves Petra and they were officialy members of the band. But the album credits is another story, so it depends on where you are reading the name on the cover.

[executioner]

The live version of "The Noise We Make" is really enhanced and really a great listen.