Pastor fired for supporting Rob Bell's new book.

[gman]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pastor- ... ning-hell/
I'm sure I had a lot of thoughts on this, but here's a couple things that came to mind. I found the whole article fascinating.

The near-relish with which some Christians stress the torments of hell, Bell argues, keep many believers needlessly afraid of a loving God, and repel potential Christians who might otherwise be curious about the faith’s teachings.

Bell does have a point there, but you don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

“We do these somersaults to justify the monster god we believe in,” he said. “But confronting my own sinfulness, that’s when things started to topple for me. Am I really going to be saved just because I believe something, when all these good people in the world aren’t?”

God is a monster? He is going to be saved because God saved him. Who are we to say people are good, or people going to hell isn't fair? That is playing God, and we are not God. We can say that someone is good by human standards, or even by Biblical standards, however, is their righteousness from God or is it filthy rags? We are not the arbiter of that.

Page Brooks, a professor at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary, thinks Bell errs in a conception of a loving God that leaves out the divine attributes of justice and holiness.

“It’s love, but it’s a just love,” Brooks said. “God is love, but you have to understand you‘re a sinner and the only way to get around that is through Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.”

What she said! This is exemplified in the relationship between parents and children; at least in the case of good parents.

[brent]

1. I don't buy the logic that hell keeps people away from a loving God. I think that is a copout. People do not want to be faced with the fact that there will be judgement and that something is required of them. That's my opinion. There is no stumbling block (hell, etc) that will overpower the drawing of the Holy Spirit. If the people are sincere, they will be found and will surrender, hell or not.
2. Like it or not, heaven and hell are real. One was not made for us and one was. One is where the loving God is and one is where THE Liar is going to go. Everyone knows God good, devil bad.
3. People I work with are asking some very good and hard questions, now that the world is having some issues. They are asking "Why would a loving God allow these things to happen? Why would a loving God set up the world to end like this, knowing good people would be hurt?" All of these are open ended questions for sharing the Gospel, the character and love of God, etc. I look at the topic of hell as the ultimate open door as well.
4. Some of these people need to stop reading more into the bible than what is there. I don't think the bible has hidden messages, and opposite truths. Heck, no two theologians agree on the plain and simple, out in the open, easy stuff.

[executioner]

A lot of good points Brent. I think as Christians sometimes we to a fault read the Bible and think "what are they trying to say to me?" And then we go searching for books that basically puts the Word of God in a box.
We as Christians are looking for a word from God but are looking in all the wrong places(not Scriptures) and in turn what do you think the non Christians are going to do?

[brent]

Personally, I am a little tired of that song being brought up. The song is often taken out of context and misapplied.

The bible is clear. We are to rightly divide the Word of Truth, letting it say what it says, in context. I have seen people bring up Witch Hunt when someone is biblically challenged when bringing up some heresy or some nutty thoughts. I can assure you that Petra did not have "accept all, no matter how it conflicts with scripture" in mind. If they were honest, they would more likely say that the song is about people coming against Petra, CCM, etc. They certainly bookend their speeches justifying Christian rock in concert with the tune.

There is a difference between looking for something to war over for the heck of it and giving a biblical defense for the truth and biblically separating from teachers of erroneous doctrines. THAT is scriptural and not witch hunting. False teachers are inspired by Satan. We are not to be united with people under Satan's influence. We are to be united with like minded believers, unified in Christ.

[brent]

I guess Paul was a moron and had no idea what Jesus wanted.

Denominations do not mean that Christians are not one. I think that we must know what "being one" means. It is totally biblical to agree to disagree on the minor things that are not deal breakers in God's eyes, and be unified on the core items that are. Not all of the disciples agreed on all things. Not all of the early churches agreed on how to do things. There is unity in everyone having liberty to exercise certain freedoms in how we worship. "One" does not mean cloned, exactly the same. Neither does "unified".

When I go out to eat, I am glad that I have a variety of restaurants to chose from. I have signs, titles and descriptions to tell me what I am going to be eating and what kind of service I will be getting when I arrive. The same thing goes for churches. When I am not at my home church, I like the fact that I can find a congregation that states, "We believe in X,Y,Z and NOT in A, B, C".

I get tired of denominational arguments as well. There has NEVER been two churches with believers that ALL saw eye to eye and were one the way that you are implying. Never. Jesus never saw it. Paul never saw it. We will not see it. People are involved and congregations are only as strong as their weakest link.

[brent]

You are right, I was brash. Sorry.

The Apostle Paul set up HIS churches (denomination) with:
A common history
A common set of beliefs
A common set of rituals
A common partnership
A common missions program
A common accountability

His churches were a different type or denomination of the others.

Modern denominations are based upon interpretations. Some of them are not wrong and insignificant. Some are wrong and are causing them to die off.

I think it is funny that most non-denominational churches bash denominational churches, but are themselves denominational churches who associate with other non-denoms. It is all a matter of word play. I like denominational titles of churches and schools because they are identifiers of the teaching and the people inside the walls. If a particular denomination is evil, I want to know about it.

In my neck of the woods, just about all of the mainline denominations have new or reborn churches changing their names to be more PC and non-descriptive. I just installed concert lighting in a Church of God church (which some would say is not in fellowship with most other mainline churches). They changed their name to simply "Lakewood Community Church". Fine. Before I knew what they believed and how they operated. Now I have no idea. It is not just the "christian" churches doing this. The Mormons are doing it too. I installed a sound system in a Mormon church with no hint of Mormon in the name at all. Imagine the shock of someone going in there on a Sunday. So, it is not just the denominations I am in favor of, but the names too. If I am going to get some self help, use God as my cosmic bell boy church like Osteen's, then I want to know before hand.

The bible says:

“If anyone advocates a different doctrine, and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions, and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.”

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

"For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."

Paul said to put false teachers from you. PUT THEM AWAY does not mean be unified with error.

[rossistheboss]

The Osteen rip was a bit harsh too. I was never a fan of his, but my church helped out at one of his "night of Hope" things two weeks ago, and I must say I didn't disagree with one word he said. Many people were led to Christ, and in effect some have actually started coming to my church. Yes he's a bit too positive at times, but he discussed sin, etc plenty of times. Just feel bad for him that he gets a bad rap. There were actually other churches holding protests outside of the arena. Why?? why weren't they holding a "night of hope" or something to help save the souls of Nashville?? why spend time protesting?? Just bugs me.

Oh, and rob bell... I think he just wants attention to be honest. I do think he truly believes what he believes, but he KNEW he was going to turn heads. We just need to ignore those distractions and press on...

[brent]

I have met Joel and his family, have friends that work in the church. I like him as a person. I know what he was taught by his daddy. His brother lays down the gospel during the midweek services. Joel admits that his church is a TV ministry with a church/studio audience. He stops short of black and white sometimes to be PC. His books are nothing more than self help books. He is a Word of Faith guy and that is who he associates with. That is a problem. You might not have disagreed with one word he said. That doesn't mean that the Joel has his theology down.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Larry KING: What if you're Jewish or Muslim, you don't accept Christ at all?
Joel Osteen: You know, I'm very careful about saying who would and wouldn't go to heaven. I don't know ...
Larry KING: If you believe you have to believe in Christ? They're wrong, aren't they?
Joel Osteen: Well, I don't know if I believe they're wrong. I believe here's what the Bible teaches and from the Christian faith this is what I believe. But I just think that only God will judge a person's heart. I spent a lot of time in India with my father. I don't know all about their religion. But I know they love God. And I don't know. I've seen their sincerity. So I don't know. I know for me, and what the Bible teaches, I want to have a relationship with Jesus.

[rossistheboss]

Well, i did not see that interview, but if that's what he said and its not being taken out of context, it sounds like he was definitely trying to be careful on national TV. Not excusing it of course, but that's what it sounds like. Again, im not one of Joel's faithful disciples or anything, but at the event i went to with my church, his theology was 100% solid. In fact, i believe he even quoted John 14:6. I just feel people need to examine themselves and what they are doing for the kingdom before judging. Many people were saved that night after hearing solid theology and the message of Christ. Does Joel need to brush up on some basic biblical principles? YES absolutely, but dont we all??

"It doesnt take any bible degree... just lift Him up for the world to see".

Now Rob Bell on the other hand... the territory he is charting is borderline dangerous... If you do not have a relationship with Christ, you will spend eternity in Hell, with total separation from God. Period. Sorry if that offends anyone, but thats just the way it is.

[brent]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ ... kl.01.html

[gman]

We have denominations because God, for whatever reason, has allowed us to search the scriptures for ourselves, as the Bereans did, and use our reasoning to understand them. He doesn't take us into Arabia, as he did with Paul, and he doesn't impart a supernatural understanding where we know exactly what every scripture says and means. We form our own understanding, and then tend to gravitate toward likeminded people. Thus, we get denominations. Why God has allowed that is a curious thing.
If God does the saving, and gives us the ability to search his word from there, that helps, but it does beg the question of would he save someone and allow them to gravitate toward a religion that most Christians would agree is outside the bounds of scripture?

[CatNamedManny]

Now Rob Bell on the other hand... the territory he is charting is borderline dangerous... If you do not have a relationship with Christ, you will spend eternity in Hell, with total separation from God. Period. Sorry if that offends anyone, but thats just the way it is.

Rob Bell's point would probably be that there is surprisingly little biblical authority for the belief that your chance to have a relationship with Christ ends when you die.

[CatNamedManny]

Three biblically supported statements:

1. God, being gracious, desires that all should be saved.
2. God, being omnipotent, will accomplish the redemption of all those he desires to save.
3. Some people will not be saved but will be separated from God forever.

This debate comes down to the following question: Which two of the three biblically supported yet contradictory statements do you believe?

[gman]

Now Rob Bell on the other hand... the territory he is charting is borderline dangerous... If you do not have a relationship with Christ, you will spend eternity in Hell, with total separation from God. Period. Sorry if that offends anyone, but thats just the way it is.

Rob Bell's point would probably be that there is surprisingly little biblical authority for the belief that your chance to have a relationship with Christ ends when you die.

Sounds like Ross's point is that Mr. Bell is taking a mallet and bludgeoning scripture to get there. Or, just casting scripture aside. Why look to God's word for truth when you can use your own reasoning to discover and make truth, and then go back to scripture and twist it to fit your truth?
I'm not quite ready to jump on board with limited atonement, but it's much more plausible then unlimited, or universal, election.