Classic Petra Web Site Updated

[brent]

Wait a minute. It has been said that Petra does not have platinum records. This is not the case:

1. The RIAA standard is not followed by all, and it is not followed to the T world wide. Often the IFPI is used and their certification numbers are all over the place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mu ... ifications

2. The RIAA does not account for all units sold forever, especially if the artist or someone acting on the artist's behalf is not paying for the tracking via Neilson SoundScan, etc. So, anything people have reissued, the bands and artists have sold on the merch tables, on their sites, etc has likely not been reported.

Example etra had an album released in 1984, it was certified Gold because the label and/or the artists were subscribed to SoundScan. Had they not subscribed and tracked those sales, nobody would ever know and people would not get paid. Once an album is certified Gold, it is not forever Gold. That certification in 1985 was for LPs alone, which was common, not inclusive of tapes and the products to come later, like CDs, downloads, etc. Add to that Gold number 28 years of continued sales on vinyl, CD, cassette (many foreign markets still do cassettes and 8 tracks to this day, downloads....they can easily have Platinum sales without certification and accounting.

I happen to know for a fact that in foreign markets, product once made under license continues to be manufactured and not paid for. In some markets, it is distributed for free. The black market for Christian music is huge and viewed as necessary. So, since the certifications do not call for units to be paid for (heck, there would be only a handful of artists who could claim that), only shipped by distributors, these albums should be counted. But, then again, there is no way to know, until 70k people show up at a concert and know every word of every song, sporting black market T-shirts, etc. This has happened to Rush, Petra and slews of others, who never knew that they had a fan base, because they never had any documented sales.

3. The whole sales thing is smoke in mirrors. There are many albums certified Platinum, even after 40 to 50k units were returned. The industry has no morals and that certification is massaged to make people money. So, yes it is nice to have that certification for bragging rights, but the numbers are not always legit.

4. Petra knows what they have done, and we all know that in the early days there was no accounting and payments for royalties and such. Bob would not let that statement hang out there if he didn't think it were true. Because the site does not claim who certified them and when, I would say that they are safely telling the truth.

[executioner]

So basically what their doing is calculating about an average of how much of an album could have sold on a yearly basis up to this time and so the whole numbers game is built on assumptions? Boy this is really smart and creditable.

Back in the late 90's Soundgarden and Pearl Jam were sued by promoters for inflating sales on their press releases and they were doing the same basic thing that Brent thinks Petra is going by in calculating numbers. BTW both bands settled out of court for millions.

[adpetrafan]

So Exe, can you prove it's a lie?

[brent]

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that there could be enough sales probably in foreign markets for certification, and in many cases there would have been no awards given like the traditional record, tape and CD in a frame for the wall. So, it is totally understandable to me that they claim that status. Again, who certified the albums and when was not given. Like I said, it does not do anyone any good to brag about a lie, so I doubt Bob and Greg are doing that.

My point was to clarify that they probably have sold that many, since it is an ambiguous number in some cases, and they are not lying, and that there is no way to know for certain how many units are out there, because there are so many people with the rights to re-release what they will, and so many people releasing black market merch.

Is anyone else getting an internal server error when trying to log in to the CP site?

[executioner]

So Exe, can you prove it's a lie?

No, but could you or anyone else for that matter prove it is true?

If they don't have the proof they could be held liable especially if they are shown trying to make profits off the numbers. I'm going by the numbers that are documented and certified, don't you think they should do the same?

[brent]

Someone could just pay for it:

http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinum.php ... termexact=

BUT, the real number of albums in the hands of fans is always going to be greater as a result of the pirating, etc.

As of the last accounting, when they had a label in 1998, here was the list:

http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinumdata ... ble=SEARCH

[bakersfieldpethead]

You know, I’m a little shocked exe. As much as you and others say you love this band, when something like this pops up, you are so quick to point a finger and call them a liar. Before you get your tights twisted, think about what you are typing and read it from somebody else’s point of view. I understand your concerns, but man let’s not worry too much about the business side of Petra, that’s not our job, we’re the fans that’s it, we promote only what we're allowed to. Bob, Greg and the guys know what they are doing and have done this long before you or I had a place to put our 2 cents worth in.

[executioner]

According to the link Petra has only 2 Gold Records with no listings for Platinum.

Beyond Belief(1995)
PP1(1998)

I understand what your saying Brent, but I think Petra and management would be served best just to stick with the facts that are documented and certified. It's a grey area built on a lot of assumptions and I think they should stick to the black and white.

[pmal]

What it boils down to is this: This is basically the same argument going on that has been happening since Classic Petra started.

Bob = Petra.
Petra = Bob.
Even while not touring (song writer), Petra = Bob.
Farewell Petra with Bob = Petra.
Classic Petra with Bob = Petra.

Some of these posts are a riot just looking at them. Petra is like McDonalds. They've sold a lot of albums and it really doesn't matter at this point. McDonalds has sold so many burgers that cows are turning themselves in now and just giving up instead of fighting. Maybe they should change the classic petra site to say "multi-gajillion". Both singers played a role in the success of Petra, as well as any other musician in the band but the point is that Bob was the common denominator. Pretty much everything sold in both lead singers' eras are mainly due to Bob. So many albums and songs have been sold, even in the last couple of years, that there is no way to know how many have been sold. Thank the Lord for Bob Hartman. Without Bob and the Lord, Petra would have been nothing.

I think we should change the logo and the name of this board and call it "The Bob Zone". This will (maybe) settle everything.

Attached is the new logo:

[sue d.]

We're not talking about that, pmal. We're talking about accuracy in reporting.

I've seen somewhere that Petra has 3 gold albums

Exe, you may be thinking of John... he as two as Petra, and one as Head East (Flat as a Pancake).

Once an album is certified Gold, it is not forever Gold.

But it's not taken AWAY, so yes - it's gold at that year where certified sales reached that point.

Thanks for that site, Brent. Very interesting. IMHO, if you can verify facts - state them. If you can't - don't say it. Having worked in advertising for almost 10 years I KNOW there's always the tendency to slant things one way or another. But also having worked on the news end of a newspaper for nearly the same length of time - you also have to be accurate and not make assumptions. Once it's in print - you can't take it back.

Baker, it's not a matter of love or un-love. It's wanting to be accurate, and not have someone down the line say "HEY - THAT'S NOT RIGHT!" and make the band look like they're trying to pull something. I'm sure they're NOT, but it could be seen as such if someone wanted to check the stated facts.

The whole gold/platinum album sales seems to be SO controversial and misleading... why does anyone even use those terms any more? Bragging rights... which equals more tours, more money, more...

[executioner]

You know, I’m a little shocked exe. As much as you and others say you love this band, when something like this pops up, you are so quick to point a finger and call them a liar. Before you get your tights twisted, think about what you are typing and read it from somebody else’s point of view. I understand your concerns, but man let’s not worry too much about the business side of Petra, that’s not our job, we’re the fans that’s it, we promote only what we're allowed to. Bob, Greg and the guys know what they are doing and have done this long before you or I had a place to put our 2 cents worth in.

I've bought all the albums(except No Doubt) several times over and tons of other merch from Petra and I think the facts should be held high especially for a Christian artist and I expect nothing less from them. If you and others feel different that's fine and I won't hold it against any of you and I expect the same from you all.

[executioner]

We're not talking about that, pmal. We're talking about accuracy in reporting.

I've seen somewhere that Petra has 3 gold albums

Exe, you may be thinking of John... he as two as Petra, and one as Head East (Flat as a Pancake).

Once an album is certified Gold, it is not forever Gold.

But it's not taken AWAY, so yes - it's gold at that year where certified sales reached that point.

Thanks for that site, Brent. Very interesting. IMHO, if you can verify facts - state them. If you can't - don't say it. Having worked in advertising for almost 10 years I KNOW there's always the tendency to slant things one way or another. But also having worked on the news end of a newspaper for nearly the same length of time - you also have to be accurate and not make assumptions. Once it's in print - you can't take it back.

Baker, it's not a matter of love or un-love. It's wanting to be accurate, and not have someone down the line say "HEY - THAT'S NOT RIGHT!" and make the band look like they're trying to pull something. I'm sure they're NOT, but it could be seen as such if someone wanted to check the stated facts.

The whole gold/platinum album sales seems to be SO controversial and misleading... why does anyone even use those terms any more? Bragging rights... which equals more tours, more money, more...

Exactly Sue!

[brent]

But it's not taken AWAY, so yes - it's gold at that year where certified sales reached that point.

You got it. They were Gold and they are more than Gold now.

Personally, I do not see how records shipped matters to promoters. That was too long ago to matter. The important numbers for me, the concert buyer, are how many have sold THIS year, who is playing them on radio THIS year, how many are coming to the shows THIS year.

Who were those old records shipped to? How many of those records shipped are listened to today? How many people are listening? THAT would be interesting to know. If everyone who has ever purchased a Petra record would go to a show today, THAT would be cake. If everyone who has purchased a Petra record would buy another new album, that would be big cake. The problem is, there are only a fraction of those willing to go to a show, or buy a record, and they are not getting the word that the shows are happening.

Someone needs to dig deep and invest some big green to make this happen. It takes a million to make a million. For all intents and purposes, these old dudes are starting from scratch. They are starting over. Fortunately, they have a small base to start with. So, they need someone to drop some major change, get them into the right doors....and the people have to be waiting for them on the other side of that door.

[Preacherman777]

Check out LoveSong's Official Website

I don't know, I checked it out and I have to say, I much prefer Classic Petra's site to that one.

[Dan]

pmal, the bob zone logo! That made my day man