Faith & Freedom ...the other side

[executioner]

It's not about Republican or Democrat for me. I could care less about either party as both parties are in many ways corrupt. It's about Christian values and principles and who is will to fight for them and who is fighting against them. By and large, the ones fighting hardest against them are on the left. Freedom matters to me because it's what our country was founded on and it's what so many people gave their lives for. It's not all about economics. If you believe that, you don't understand. Personally, I grew up poor, dirt poor, and I've seen what keeps you poor and I've seen what gets you on your feet and I can guarantee you that government is not the reason I'm middle class today. Hard work, sacrifice and responsibility, charity and the blessings of God are what saw me and my family through and they are the things that will see anybody through if they would learn to rely on them rather than the government.

Nice post!

I personally think its a lost cause talking to international people about America, most in part have their minds made up that we are the "Evil Empire", very rarely around here will you ever see any of us Americans talk negative towards another ones country, and in my case it has alot to do with not fully understanding the way their country was/is built. I think if you really think about it you all probably know only about as much about the TRUE AMERICA from what you get from the media which internationally is hellbent on America. I do have a friend that was born & raised in Canada and after college took a job in Texas and he tells me in schooling in Canada very little is taught about the U.S. but what is taught is mostly positive.

I do think its ironic that when other countries have a natural disaster, or are on the brink of financial ruin that they turn to us and beg for our assistance and we continue to help them even though very rarely are we ever paid back anything. BTW in the late 80's & early 90's the U.S. pumped about $10B into the Canadian Ecomony just to keep them afloat and probably would do it again if needed.

[executioner]

Alot of us do! You might not have been the best President, but you were alot better than the Big O.

[bradleyr12]

Ugh...... on a positive note, John Schlitt just put out a great new album and a cool video!

[executioner]

Ugh...... on a positive note, John Schlitt just put out a great new album and a cool video!

Yeah I know how you feel; its a shame that since I'm American that I get put in a box from the international folks because their liberal media tells them I'm that way.

[zman7720000]

1. You put yourself in a box
2. How do you know what media informs my opinions?
3. Conservative media has an agenda equal to and is as biased as much as liberal media.

yes, but conservatives are right and liberals are wrong!

[gman]

I'll speak for myself as a conservative. European countries are more socialistic. I believe the American experiment was intended to be different. Generally speaking, I think it was better, especially in light of the high taxes, spending and debt that seem necessary to sustain a more socialized system. I may be way off, but I don't think that a permanent lower class was originally intended. It was supposed to be a temporary status for people as they got a hand up and got back on their feet. It was the envisioned moral fabric of America that would make it work; through the generosity of fellow men, churches, and private charities. Since the founding of America, progressive minded politicians have done a great job of seizing opportunities to give handouts to people, and redefine needy in order to expand Gov't by creating programs to help those who meet their new definition. What they've done, IMO, is create and enslave a lower class of people who know no other way to live than with Gov't assistance. The progessive left has worked very hard to do several things: equate an enslaved lower class with poverty as defined elsewhere in the world, wipe out America's moral fabric, paint the church as a failure in helping the poor, and make the Federal Gov't the moral authority. I don't think the U.S. needs to be more socialized, or would be better off by being more socialized, however, I believe we could have the debate if the U.S. were not in debt, and it had a balanced budget. I think we passed the point long ago where we should have said we are in debt, no more Gov't expansion until we get it cleaned up.

Sorry if I rambled on and was too vague. I was trying to pull some thoughts together while working. Fire away!

[gman]

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

Just curious what you disagree with in regards to republicans? The media portrayal of what republicans stand for isn't always accurate.
As for the bible and politics, my personal belief is that scripture is the ultimate authority for everything, and should define what you believe politically. I find that people who have different interpretations of scripture have different viewpoints politically. I also often find that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.
That being said, the bible and politics is probably a separate thread, and has probably hashed over a bunch of times already.

[gman]

gman, when you say,

that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.

you are making a broad generalization and assumption. It's quite likely that people hold the Bible as ultimate authority AND disagree with you politically. (I would say actually that God is the ultimate authority, and that the Spirit speaks through Scripture in community)

That's what I said. People who hold to the bible as the ultimate authority and have the same general interpretation will likely have similar political views. Those with a different interpretation will likely have different views. Regarding a Christian that doesn't hold to the bible as the ultimate authority on everything, I've yet to run into one that has conservative political views.

[executioner]

gman, when you say,

that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.

you are making a broad generalization and assumption. It's quite likely that people hold the Bible as ultimate authority AND disagree with you politically. (I would say actually that God is the ultimate authority, and that the Spirit speaks through Scripture in community)

That's what I said. People who hold to the bible as the ultimate authority and have the same general interpretation will likely have similar political views. Those with a different interpretation will likely have different views. Regarding a Christian that doesn't hold to the bible as the ultimate authority on everything, I've yet to run into one that has conservative political views.

This is the reason why I can't understand how someone can vote Democratic and still views and holds the Bible & God as the uitimate authority. I will admit that the RNC has troubles and beliefs that really don't agree with the Bible & God, but in most cases they are minor. The DNC is totally against just about everything the Bible & God hold true, so if you vote democratic I would have to question if you hold God & Bible as the ultimate authority.

BTW this is not a thread supporting the RNC, but a thread discounting the DNC. I vote Republican most of the time but in some state/local elections I've voted 3rd party and independant alot of the times.

[gman]

gman, when you say,

that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.

you are making a broad generalization and assumption. It's quite likely that people hold the Bible as ultimate authority AND disagree with you politically. (I would say actually that God is the ultimate authority, and that the Spirit speaks through Scripture in community)

That's what I said. People who hold to the bible as the ultimate authority and have the same general interpretation will likely have similar political views. Those with a different interpretation will likely have different views. Regarding a Christian that doesn't hold to the bible as the ultimate authority on everything, I've yet to run into one that has conservative political views.

This is the reason why I can't understand how someone can vote Democratic and still views and holds the Bible & God as the uitimate authority. I will admit that the RNC has troubles and beliefs that really don't agree with the Bible & God, but in most cases they are minor. The DNC is totally against just about everything the Bible & God hold true, so if you vote democratic I would have to question if you hold God & Bible as the ultimate authority.

BTW this is not a thread supporting the RNC, but a thread discounting the DNC. I vote Republican most of the time but in some state/local elections I've voted 3rd party and independant alot of the times.

Their interpretation of scripture is new and enlightened. They discount what have become traditional evangelical views. They see scripture as more vague on certain issues. They're not really sure it condemns a gay lifestyle. They see socialistic and communistic threads that support having big Gov't in the name of compassion. Stuff like that.
For those who don't hold the bible as authoritative; that think it is inaccurate for full of error and exaggeration, I honestly don't even understand how they can be a Christian. How do you sort out what is and isn't true?

[andreasbjerre]

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

Just curious what you disagree with in regards to republicans? The media portrayal of what republicans stand for isn't always accurate.
As for the bible and politics, my personal belief is that scripture is the ultimate authority for everything, and should define what you believe politically. I find that people who have different interpretations of scripture have different viewpoints politically. I also often find that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.
That being said, the bible and politics is probably a separate thread, and has probably hashed over a bunch of times already.

Regarding republicans: I think they were way too offensive during the Bush government if you look at the Iraq and afghanistan wars. Really I dont think that much good have come out of those wars, and experts keep telling that especially the war in afghanistan didn't do much good, because the taliban is so hard to fight. And people who know the inside of things say that the US knew iraq didnt have nuclear weapon. Also i think its sad to see how Europe and the US are so fast to involve themselves in wars that officially is about "freeing a nation from a dictator" in political important areas like the middle east (oil).At the same time you have lots of dictators and conflicts in african´countries and other places that, seen with europe and the US' eyes doesn't matter. This is just an indication that though "freeing a nation" perhaps is part of the agenda, its not the whole agenda at all.
Concerning domestic american politics, I dont like the republicans, because they overall fight so much for a small government, which also means a low amount of health security and education oppotunitiies and freedom for the lower social groups of the society.

Concerning the bible: Yes as a christian the bible is the ultimate authority and should definately be a big part of defining your political viewpoints, because if you are a true believer, Jesus will have an effect on all areas of your life. But when you argue in public it doesn't give much sense to use the bible as an argument WHEN DISCUSSING WITH NON-BELIEVERS. Why would they listen to an argument from a source they dont believe? Thats why i said that christian values are so good and pure that you can make a perfectly good argument from a philosophical/rational point of view. And I perfectly understand non-believers that think its stupid when believers argue on the basis of the bible.
But I know that i am probably far from you politically, and i think the big difference is that I am more sceptical making a religious based foundation for a country, than lots of christian americans. I guess it has much to do with what culture you are raised in. I just dont see the biblical argument to blend belief and politics the way its sometimes done in the US. Off course I think its a nobel cause to fight against abortion. But if I was an american I would still vote democrats, cause I think abortion is a lost cause, and I think democrats wellphare politics are more concerning of the people in need than republicans, and from a christian perspective I personally think thats very important.

[brent]

I vote the best that I can knowing:

All of the people on the ballot are corruptible and/or corrupt.
All of the people willing to get into politics have to get in dirty to win, and will therefore get dirty to stay in office, and will be dirty in office.
All of the people in politics have issues. All of them have a history. Sometimes they are expected to be sinless, just in case the unexpected election for public office comes along. That is retarded. Everyone has failed at something, sinned, etc. I would much rather vote for the honest guy who has learned from his mistakes than someone acting like a saint.
There is little our voting can change. The US government has the keys to the data, and can manipulate that data at will. Any computer/software based voting system has a back door.
The democrats do not want a real vote, because they cannot win a real vote (with real, legit, living citizens). They are moving to keep states from removing illegal voters from the roles so they can continue to vote, so Obama can get a payback for all of this crap he is doing for them.
The republicans are idiots and cannot handle control. We have seen that.
It doesn't matter IMO. I predict that Obama will be the last president we have, and this next election will be the last. We are upside down and China is getting ready to put it's foot on our neck. Maybe Apple can loan the government some money.

[gman]

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

Just curious what you disagree with in regards to republicans? The media portrayal of what republicans stand for isn't always accurate.
As for the bible and politics, my personal belief is that scripture is the ultimate authority for everything, and should define what you believe politically. I find that people who have different interpretations of scripture have different viewpoints politically. I also often find that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.
That being said, the bible and politics is probably a separate thread, and has probably hashed over a bunch of times already.

Regarding republicans: I think they were way too offensive during the Bush government if you look at the Iraq and afghanistan wars. Really I dont think that much good have come out of those wars, and experts keep telling that especially the war in afghanistan didn't do much good, because the taliban is so hard to fight. And people who know the inside of things say that the US knew iraq didnt have nuclear weapon. Also i think its sad to see how Europe and the US are so fast to involve themselves in wars that officially is about "freeing a nation from a dictator" in political important areas like the middle east (oil).At the same time you have lots of dictators and conflicts in african´countries and other places that, seen with europe and the US' eyes doesn't matter. This is just an indication that though "freeing a nation" perhaps is part of the agenda, its not the whole agenda at all.
Concerning domestic american politics, I dont like the republicans, because they overall fight so much for a small government, which also means a low amount of health security and education oppotunitiies and freedom for the lower social groups of the society.

Concerning the bible: Yes as a christian the bible is the ultimate authority and should definately be a big part of defining your political viewpoints, because if you are a true believer, Jesus will have an effect on all areas of your life. But when you argue in public it doesn't give much sense to use the bible as an argument WHEN DISCUSSING WITH NON-BELIEVERS. Why would they listen to an argument from a source they dont believe? Thats why i said that christian values are so good and pure that you can make a perfectly good argument from a philosophical/rational point of view. And I perfectly understand non-believers that think its stupid when believers argue on the basis of the bible.
But I know that i am probably far from you politically, and i think the big difference is that I am more sceptical making a religious based foundation for a country, than lots of christian americans. I guess it has much to do with what culture you are raised in. I just dont see the biblical argument to blend belief and politics the way its sometimes done in the US. Off course I think its a nobel cause to fight against abortion. But if I was an american I would still vote democrats, cause I think abortion is a lost cause, and I think democrats wellphare politics are more concerning of the people in need than republicans, and from a christian perspective I personally think thats very important.

I may not be exactly right, but I believe small Gov't republicans want the Federal gov't to get out of, or reduce it's role, in things like welfare, retirement, healthcare, and education. Let the Federal Gov't have its role in things like national security and infrastructure, and let the individual state Govt's hash out the other stuff. The problem is that too many fatcat politicians like having the federal Gov't involved in everything. They use it as a means of justifying their existence; to secure votes for themselves and their party, and to protect their fatcat status. It's a money laundering operation by the rich, to take care of the rich. They don't care about the poor. That's a ruse, IMO.
I've got so many different threads running through my head at this point that I think I'll just quit. Let me just say that I think the U.S. could dump the federal Gov't except for what was originally intended at inception, and let the individual states handle the rest, and it would be much better off.

[executioner]

I vote the best that I can knowing:

All of the people on the ballot are corruptible and/or corrupt.
All of the people willing to get into politics have to get in dirty to win, and will therefore get dirty to stay in office, and will be dirty in office.
All of the people in politics have issues. All of them have a history. Sometimes they are expected to be sinless, just in case the unexpected election for public office comes along. That is retarded. Everyone has failed at something, sinned, etc. I would much rather vote for the honest guy who has learned from his mistakes than someone acting like a saint.
There is little our voting can change. The US government has the keys to the data, and can manipulate that data at will. Any computer/software based voting system has a back door.
The democrats do not want a real vote, because they cannot win a real vote (with real, legit, living citizens). They are moving to keep states from removing illegal voters from the roles so they can continue to vote, so Obama can get a payback for all of this crap he is doing for them.
The republicans are idiots and cannot handle control. We have seen that.
It doesn't matter IMO. I predict that Obama will be the last president we have, and this next election will be the last. We are upside down and China is getting ready to put it's foot on our neck. Maybe Apple can loan the government some money.

I have alot of the same views; I do believe if Obama wins this will be our last election for President, and also see a senerio where some states will consider breaking off from the U.S. Did you know when Texas was its own Republic and when they agreed to become part of the U.S. that part of the agreement was that at anytime after a 5 year waiting period that Texas could break apart again from the U.S. if they deem it financially responsible? I know this is far fetched but there are some Texas elected officials that have brought this up to the public and Texas State Senate in the last few years. I'm not saying that this will happen, but it could and there are elected officials seriously looking at the options we have as a state.

[executioner]

I know I will never agree with reepublicans on politics and as long as you dont make Jesus a hostage in your political campaigns it fine by me. Its a good thing to fight for christian values, but to make an argument in politics with the bible in your hand - its not a good idea. True christian values are so pure and good that you can make a perfectly good argument without using the bible.

Just curious what you disagree with in regards to republicans? The media portrayal of what republicans stand for isn't always accurate.
As for the bible and politics, my personal belief is that scripture is the ultimate authority for everything, and should define what you believe politically. I find that people who have different interpretations of scripture have different viewpoints politically. I also often find that people who don't view the bible as the ultimate authority, don't have the same political viewpoint that I do.
That being said, the bible and politics is probably a separate thread, and has probably hashed over a bunch of times already.

Regarding republicans: I think they were way too offensive during the Bush government if you look at the Iraq and afghanistan wars. Really I dont think that much good have come out of those wars, and experts keep telling that especially the war in afghanistan didn't do much good, because the taliban is so hard to fight. And people who know the inside of things say that the US knew iraq didnt have nuclear weapon. Also i think its sad to see how Europe and the US are so fast to involve themselves in wars that officially is about "freeing a nation from a dictator" in political important areas like the middle east (oil).At the same time you have lots of dictators and conflicts in african´countries and other places that, seen with europe and the US' eyes doesn't matter. This is just an indication that though "freeing a nation" perhaps is part of the agenda, its not the whole agenda at all.
Concerning domestic american politics, I dont like the republicans, because they overall fight so much for a small government, which also means a low amount of health security and education oppotunitiies and freedom for the lower social groups of the society.

Concerning the bible: Yes as a christian the bible is the ultimate authority and should definately be a big part of defining your political viewpoints, because if you are a true believer, Jesus will have an effect on all areas of your life. But when you argue in public it doesn't give much sense to use the bible as an argument WHEN DISCUSSING WITH NON-BELIEVERS. Why would they listen to an argument from a source they dont believe? Thats why i said that christian values are so good and pure that you can make a perfectly good argument from a philosophical/rational point of view. And I perfectly understand non-believers that think its stupid when believers argue on the basis of the bible.
But I know that i am probably far from you politically, and i think the big difference is that I am more sceptical making a religious based foundation for a country, than lots of christian americans. I guess it has much to do with what culture you are raised in. I just dont see the biblical argument to blend belief and politics the way its sometimes done in the US. Off course I think its a nobel cause to fight against abortion. But if I was an american I would still vote democrats, cause I think abortion is a lost cause, and I think democrats wellphare politics are more concerning of the people in need than republicans, and from a christian perspective I personally think thats very important.

So you want to quit the race because you feel its a lost cause? God has never given you that option as a Christian.
Our Forefathers came to America because of big government, because government was involved in every aspect of their lives back in Europe; This includes anything from religious freedom, to supressing the poor, to high taxation and I believe my Forefathers were correct.
No where in the Bible does it say anything about its your governments responsibility to give assistance to ones in need; this is solely the responsibility of the church and us Christians and we for the most part have failed; if we gave what God has asked of us there would be far less people in need.