just wondering

[Mountain Man]

To put it another way, while God used Petra's success, I do not believe he caused it.

Because of man's free will and because Christians try to find out what God wants for them and (hopefully) tries to follow that, I think God influences Christians to an extent but not so much people who believe there is no God or choose not to follow him. So I think that God probably have put Petra together and influenced them to do what they do, or put a will in them to do this so to say, a calling. And I think he has put a will in us (the Petra fans) to don't put garbage in our (computer) brains but to think of what we eat musically. But music is a matter of taste, culture, age, etc etc. Everyone can't like a certain group or music style. If you don't like a CD you simply won't buy it. However, I think God can speak to you through music. So he probably can open someones heart for a song or whatever. It all depends on so many things.

Correct, and along the same lines He gives us the will and rights to do what we want, but it all comes back to where God has COMPLETE control over everything(including CCM) and its up to us Christians to have the faith that He does. Too be honest I see some here in this post lacking the faith that God has provided for us.

While God can exercise complete control over everything, I see no reason to think that he actually does. There are a great many things that happen in life that were not ordained by God but are simply the result of man's choices.

It's like the joke I once heard:

"When I get to heaven, I'm going to ask God why he didn't do more to end suffering in the world."
"When I get to heaven, I'm afraid he's going to ask me the same thing."

To suggest that God is the cause of our successes and failures is to alleviate ourselves of personal responsibility.

I also think it is extremely arrogant of you to suggest that any disagreement we have is based on my lack of "faith".

[rexreed]

It isn't the job of anyone on the Petra fansite to question another persons faith. The original post was asking about Christian rock bands from the 80's and why only a couple are still around. If you think that using Jonah or Job are good examples as to why concert tickets cd's are bought or why radio stations put a song on the playlist then I'd like to see the direct connection. If you have no understanding of the subject then maybe step aside with the lecture and wait for someone that has a theory or some insight on the matter.

[pmal]

It isn't the job of anyone on the Petra fansite to question another persons faith. The original post was asking about Christian rock bands from the 80's and why only a couple are still around. If you think that using Jonah or Job are good examples as to why concert tickets cd's are bought or why radio stations put a song on the playlist then I'd like to see the direct connection. If you have no understanding of the subject then maybe step aside with the lecture and wait for someone that has a theory or some insight on the matter.

Yes, dearest mother. Oh, I forgot, I have an opinion too ...

I thought I read in the Bible where God would use anything/everything to bring glory to himself, as in even the rocks would cry out. Look, I'm not saying that He is using concerts and cds necessarily but I'm sure not going to dare say that He couldn't and wouldn't if it pleased and brought glory to Him. If you're willing to say never, I'm willing to call you on it.

[brent]

...but that is the problem. You are misunderstanding the concept and context of the verse that says "all things work together..." It does not imply that God makes everything happen, good and bad. MAN brings about bad things, because of accidents, poor judgement, disobedience, etc. God judges and causes people to be rewarded and punished. God forcing people to make the mistakes per se. God is not forcing people into good per se. This is why servants are required to be faithful, work, then be judged for their service. Is God condemning some people to never be rewarded and always cursed?

[Mountain Man]

It isn't the job of anyone on the Petra fansite to question another persons faith. The original post was asking about Christian rock bands from the 80's and why only a couple are still around. If you think that using Jonah or Job are good examples as to why concert tickets cd's are bought or why radio stations put a song on the playlist then I'd like to see the direct connection. If you have no understanding of the subject then maybe step aside with the lecture and wait for someone that has a theory or some insight on the matter.

Yes, dearest mother. Oh, I forgot, I have an opinion too ...

I thought I read in the Bible where God would use anything/everything to bring glory to himself, as in even the rocks would cry out. Look, I'm not saying that He is using concerts and cds necessarily but I'm sure not going to dare say that He couldn't and wouldn't if it pleased and brought glory to Him. If you're willing to say never, I'm willing to call you on it.

I think the problem here is separating "can" from "does". Yes, God can take direct control of any industry he chooses, but I see no reason to think that he actually does. This is where his sovereignty comes into play: there is nothing man could do on this earth that would upset the ultimate plan of God, which is to say that God's will is done even if the CCM industry were 100% market driven.

[pmal]

Is God condemning some people to never be rewarded and always cursed?

According to what I've seen, yes, we are 100% responsible and God is 100% sovereign. It is a concept, similar to the Trinity, that the human mind can't fully understand:

Good works and salvation prepared for us:

Ephesians 1:4-6, "4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves"
Ephesians 2:8-10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which Christ hath fore ordained that we should walk in them."

Judgement prepared for the evil:

Romans 9:22 [n]What(or But) if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made everything for [c]its(or His) own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
John 6:64,65: "64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would [j]betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

God extends mercy as He sees fit/destruction as He sees fit:

Romans 9:14-18 "14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “ I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “ For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed [k]throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Jude 1:4 "4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand [a] marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

I Peter 2:7,8 "7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “ The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,” 8 and, “ A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."

[Preacherman777]

The thing that strikes me as interesting is that I provided scriptures to back up my point and this is something that no one arguing for the other side has done nor have they made any effort to answer for the scriptures I posted. The scriptures are very clear that God directs the affairs of men and he makes things happen according to his will. He grants us choices in certain areas, salvation being among them, but that's as far as it goes. I'll say it again, you guys are essentially arguing for Deism.

Where it comes to evil, it should be understood in the context of Pharaoh. He hardened his own heart first and demonstrated his evil heart and God gave him over to that evil by further hardening his heart and using the situation to his glory. Men choose evil but God remains in control of what happens as a result. It is he who says you can go this far and no more. This is why the lesson from Job is so valuable.

[executioner]

To put it another way, while God used Petra's success, I do not believe he caused it.

Because of man's free will and because Christians try to find out what God wants for them and (hopefully) tries to follow that, I think God influences Christians to an extent but not so much people who believe there is no God or choose not to follow him. So I think that God probably have put Petra together and influenced them to do what they do, or put a will in them to do this so to say, a calling. And I think he has put a will in us (the Petra fans) to don't put garbage in our (computer) brains but to think of what we eat musically. But music is a matter of taste, culture, age, etc etc. Everyone can't like a certain group or music style. If you don't like a CD you simply won't buy it. However, I think God can speak to you through music. So he probably can open someones heart for a song or whatever. It all depends on so many things.

Correct, and along the same lines He gives us the will and rights to do what we want, but it all comes back to where God has COMPLETE control over everything(including CCM) and its up to us Christians to have the faith that He does. Too be honest I see some here in this post lacking the faith that God has provided for us.

While God can exercise complete control over everything, I see no reason to think that he actually does. There are a great many things that happen in life that were not ordained by God but are simply the result of man's choices.

It's like the joke I once heard:

"When I get to heaven, I'm going to ask God why he didn't do more to end suffering in the world."
"When I get to heaven, I'm afraid he's going to ask me the same thing."

To suggest that God is the cause of our successes and failures is to alleviate ourselves of personal responsibility.

I also think it is extremely arrogant of you to suggest that any disagreement we have is based on my lack of "faith".

First off the lack of faith comment was not directed towards you but towards another. The only opinion I've had about this whole subject is that no matter what happens God is still in control of everything, and if you do not believe that then your faith in God is lacking. There is one here that acts like through his words that there is nothing God can do to control the CCM market. I agree that CCM is not following God's perfect will, but too be honest none of us are. If God wants Petra to start all of sudden to start selling millions of CD's again guess what there is NOTHING that anyone can do to mess that up; it will get done through God with or without us.

[shawnpfan2010]

I asked a very simple question and this is where we windup? GOD help us!!!!

[Boray]

Yes, a very simple question indeed!!! As if anyone but God would know the answer...

[pmal]

Yes, a very simple question indeed!!! As if anyone but God would know the answer...

This = +1

[Mountain Man]

To put it another way, while God used Petra's success, I do not believe he caused it.

Because of man's free will and because Christians try to find out what God wants for them and (hopefully) tries to follow that, I think God influences Christians to an extent but not so much people who believe there is no God or choose not to follow him. So I think that God probably have put Petra together and influenced them to do what they do, or put a will in them to do this so to say, a calling. And I think he has put a will in us (the Petra fans) to don't put garbage in our (computer) brains but to think of what we eat musically. But music is a matter of taste, culture, age, etc etc. Everyone can't like a certain group or music style. If you don't like a CD you simply won't buy it. However, I think God can speak to you through music. So he probably can open someones heart for a song or whatever. It all depends on so many things.

Correct, and along the same lines He gives us the will and rights to do what we want, but it all comes back to where God has COMPLETE control over everything(including CCM) and its up to us Christians to have the faith that He does. Too be honest I see some here in this post lacking the faith that God has provided for us.

While God can exercise complete control over everything, I see no reason to think that he actually does. There are a great many things that happen in life that were not ordained by God but are simply the result of man's choices.

It's like the joke I once heard:

"When I get to heaven, I'm going to ask God why he didn't do more to end suffering in the world."
"When I get to heaven, I'm afraid he's going to ask me the same thing."

To suggest that God is the cause of our successes and failures is to alleviate ourselves of personal responsibility.

I also think it is extremely arrogant of you to suggest that any disagreement we have is based on my lack of "faith".

First off the lack of faith comment was not directed towards you but towards another. The only opinion I've had about this whole subject is that no matter what happens God is still in control of everything, and if you do not believe that then your faith in God is lacking. There is one here that acts like through his words that there is nothing God can do to control the CCM market. I agree that CCM is not following God's perfect will, but too be honest none of us are. If God wants Petra to start all of sudden to start selling millions of CD's again guess what there is NOTHING that anyone can do to mess that up; it will get done through God with or without us.

Again, the distinction is between what God can do and what he actually does.

[Mountain Man]

The thing that strikes me as interesting is that I provided scriptures to back up my point and this is something that no one arguing for the other side has done nor have they made any effort to answer for the scriptures I posted. The scriptures are very clear that God directs the affairs of men and he makes things happen according to his will. He grants us choices in certain areas, salvation being among them, but that's as far as it goes. I'll say it again, you guys are essentially arguing for Deism.

Where it comes to evil, it should be understood in the context of Pharaoh. He hardened his own heart first and demonstrated his evil heart and God gave him over to that evil by further hardening his heart and using the situation to his glory. Men choose evil but God remains in control of what happens as a result. It is he who says you can go this far and no more. This is why the lesson from Job is so valuable.

There are two things that I take issue with here:

First of all, you assume that the verses you quoted support your view and support it exclusively. This is, of course, not the case. Yes, God does guide our steps, but he doesn't do it directly. Rather, it is through his revealed will -- that is scripture -- and the inner promptings of the Holy Spirit and not as though mankind were puppets on a string with limited freewill. The view you espouse would seem to abdicate man, at least partly, of his personal responsibility which undermines the central message of the Bible.

Secondly, you talk about "sides". We're not on opposite sides here. I think, ultimately, we're all arguing the same thing, just from different perspectives. That you accuse me of promoting deism tells me nothing more than you have almost entirely failed to understand my position.

Regarding Pharoah, I suppose it's possible that God overrode his freewill and forced him to harden his heart, but I don't believe he actually did and that you're reading scripture too literally (just as you read "A man's steps are directed by the LORD" too literally). "God hardened Pharoah's heart" reads to me like a figure of speech, similar to "I made my brother mad".

[pmal]

Regarding Pharoah, I suppose it's possible that God overrode his freewill and forced him to harden his heart, but I don't believe he actually did and that you're reading scripture too literally (just as you read "A man's steps are directed by the LORD" too literally). "God hardened Pharoah's heart" reads to me like a figure of speech, similar to "I made my brother mad".

Not trying to pick a fight, but in all humbleness, I would suggest you re-read Romans 9 and see it for yourself.

[rexreed]

Does anyone here know what happenned to the Christian rock scene? I started college in the 90's and Petra was still going strong. They were playing second and first tier venues in Houston. By the time I graduated they were in non traditional venues and Bob Hartman was not touring. AA seemed to be getting better but Mylon and Broken Heart seemed to stop visiting SE Texas. Same goes for Whitecross. I remember seeing AA a few times and even Geoff Moore and the Distance at well attended shows as late as 97. All I have is anecdotal evidence. I'd like some hard facts. Did the attendance drop that fast? Was there no way for these bands to make ends meet? Anyone have any answers? Is this covered in Romans 9?