just wondering

[Preacherman777]

There are two things that I take issue with here:

First of all, you assume that the verses you quoted support your view and support it exclusively. This is, of course, not the case. Yes, God does guide our steps, but he doesn't do it directly. Rather, it is through his revealed will -- that is scripture -- and the inner promptings of the Holy Spirit and not as though mankind were puppets on a string with limited freewill. The view you espouse would seem to abdicate man, at least partly, of his personal responsibility which undermines the central message of the Bible.

Secondly, you talk about "sides". We're not on opposite sides here. I think, ultimately, we're all arguing the same thing, just from different perspectives. That you accuse me of promoting deism tells me nothing more than you have almost entirely failed to understand my position.

Regarding Pharoah, I suppose it's possible that God overrode his freewill and forced him to harden his heart, but I don't believe he actually did and that you're reading scripture too literally (just as you read "A man's steps are directed by the LORD" too literally). "God hardened Pharoah's heart" reads to me like a figure of speech, similar to "I made my brother mad".

The verses I quotes were a just a few of many that basically make the same case. If I posted them all it would be quite a long list. I am a very careful scripture reader. Context is very important to me and as a pastor it's basically part of my job to get it right. Hermeneutics is not practiced correctly when instead taking scripture for what it says, in it's context, we decide to practice eisegesis and distort it into something else. You can poo poo taking these verses literally all you want, but when hyperbole is offered in the scriptures it's generally very clear that that's the case. You are suggesting that the things God is saying of himself are not to be taken at their word. I see that as very dangerous.

Having said that, you are once again misrepresenting my view with your "puppets on a string" comment. This is not and never has been what I have been saying and nothing about what I'm saying alleviates man of responsibility. God doesn't make men be good or evil. All of us sin, so all of us are evil. God calls us to repentance and some do and some don't. God allows us to make that decision for ourselves, but the scriptures are clear that there does come a time where God will turn man over to his sin, just as he did with Pharaoh. Once again, Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, this is what the scripture says, after that, God further hardened him and used him and his evil ways to bring glory to himself. So it's not a matter of God making certain people good and certain people evil, rather it's about taking those who choose to follow him and using them for his purposes and also taking those who resist him and using them for his purposes. As with Jonah, he hems people in with circumstances in order to bring about a result, but no one person is so all important that they will make or break God's will. If one should fall by the way side, there would be another to take his place and either way, God's will gets accomplished. So yes, man has that freedom of choice within certain limitations, but ultimately God's purposes are accomplished in all things. Now, some will look at something like the Holocaust and say God's purposes could not have been accomplished in that, but you don't know that, you assume it because you place your own thoughts and ways above God's and you refuse to submit to his sovereignty. Petra themselves sang about this very thing. Read the lyrics to Whole World. It's everything I and others have been talking about. As the song notes, Jesus said not even a sparrow can fall to the ground apart from the will of the Father. So see, I'm still waiting for the scriptural evidence that man can frustrate the will of God. That God doesn't care what happens with a group like Petra and that if they are a big deal or a small deal is all just in the hands of men and that God is indifferent to it. Waiting, waiting and still waiting...

I would have to contend that yes, we are on different sides. There are those who believe in the sovereignty of God and there are those who deny it. That's not a matter of perspective. I'm not saying it make one a Christian and one not a Christian, I'm just saying, it's a very important difference. Kind of like Protestant and Catholic kind of difference. As for Deism well, the definition of Deism is a belief in a God who created but who does not interfere in the affairs of men. At the very least, to a significant degree, this is what you guys are saying. Sure, you're not full blown Deists, but you do deny what the scriptures teach about how God is involved with and impacts the affairs of men.

[Mountain Man]

Regarding Pharoah, I suppose it's possible that God overrode his freewill and forced him to harden his heart, but I don't believe he actually did and that you're reading scripture too literally (just as you read "A man's steps are directed by the LORD" too literally). "God hardened Pharoah's heart" reads to me like a figure of speech, similar to "I made my brother mad".

Not trying to pick a fight, but in all humbleness, I would suggest you re-read Romans 9 and see it for yourself.

I suppose you're referring to verse 17? I still think you're being too literal since God's purpose would have been fulfilled even if at the first display of God's power Pharoah had fallen to his knees and praised the name of Yahweh.

[Mountain Man]

There are two things that I take issue with here:

First of all, you assume that the verses you quoted support your view and support it exclusively. This is, of course, not the case. Yes, God does guide our steps, but he doesn't do it directly. Rather, it is through his revealed will -- that is scripture -- and the inner promptings of the Holy Spirit and not as though mankind were puppets on a string with limited freewill. The view you espouse would seem to abdicate man, at least partly, of his personal responsibility which undermines the central message of the Bible.

Secondly, you talk about "sides". We're not on opposite sides here. I think, ultimately, we're all arguing the same thing, just from different perspectives. That you accuse me of promoting deism tells me nothing more than you have almost entirely failed to understand my position.

Regarding Pharoah, I suppose it's possible that God overrode his freewill and forced him to harden his heart, but I don't believe he actually did and that you're reading scripture too literally (just as you read "A man's steps are directed by the LORD" too literally). "God hardened Pharoah's heart" reads to me like a figure of speech, similar to "I made my brother mad".

The verses I quotes were a just a few of many that basically make the same case. If I posted them all it would be quite a long list. I am a very careful scripture reader. Context is very important to me and as a pastor it's basically part of my job to get it right. Hermeneutics is not practiced correctly when instead taking scripture for what it says, in it's context, we decide to practice eisegesis and distort it into something else. You can poo poo taking these verses literally all you want, but when hyperbole is offered in the scriptures it's generally very clear that that's the case. You are suggesting that the things God is saying of himself are not to be taken at their word. I see that as very dangerous.

Having said that, you are once again misrepresenting my view with your "puppets on a string" comment. This is not and never has been what I have been saying and nothing about what I'm saying alleviates man of responsibility. God doesn't make men be good or evil. All of us sin, so all of us are evil. God calls us to repentance and some do and some don't. God allows us to make that decision for ourselves, but the scriptures are clear that there does come a time where God will turn man over to his sin, just as he did with Pharaoh. Once again, Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, this is what the scripture says, after that, God further hardened him and used him and his evil ways to bring glory to himself. So it's not a matter of God making certain people good and certain people evil, rather it's about taking those who choose to follow him and using them for his purposes and also taking those who resist him and using them for his purposes. As with Jonah, he hems people in with circumstances in order to bring about a result, but no one person is so all important that they will make or break God's will. If one should fall by the way side, there would be another to take his place and either way, God's will gets accomplished. So yes, man has that freedom of choice within certain limitations, but ultimately God's purposes are accomplished in all things. Now, some will look at something like the Holocaust and say God's purposes could not have been accomplished in that, but you don't know that, you assume it because you place your own thoughts and ways above God's and you refuse to submit to his sovereignty. Petra themselves sang about this very thing. Read the lyrics to Whole World. It's everything I and others have been talking about. As the song notes, Jesus said not even a sparrow can fall to the ground apart from the will of the Father. So see, I'm still waiting for the scriptural evidence that man can frustrate the will of God. That God doesn't care what happens with a group like Petra and that if they are a big deal or a small deal is all just in the hands of men and that God is indifferent to it. Waiting, waiting and still waiting...

I would have to contend that yes, we are on different sides. There are those who believe in the sovereignty of God and there are those who deny it. That's not a matter of perspective. I'm not saying it make one a Christian and one not a Christian, I'm just saying, it's a very important difference. Kind of like Protestant and Catholic kind of difference. As for Deism well, the definition of Deism is a belief in a God who created but who does not interfere in the affairs of men. At the very least, to a significant degree, this is what you guys are saying. Sure, you're not full blown Deists, but you do deny what the scriptures teach about how God is involved with and impacts the affairs of men.

I have not denied the sovereignty of God, nor have I claimed that "man can frustrate the will of God" or that God is ever indifferent to our decisions and actions. Here's what I said earlier:

I think the problem here is separating "can" from "does". Yes, God can take direct control of any industry he chooses, but I see no reason to think that he actually does. This is where his sovereignty comes into play: there is nothing man could do on this earth that would upset the ultimate plan of God, which is to say that God's will is done even if the CCM industry were 100% market driven.

That's why I say that for you to accuse me of deism is an admission on your part that you don't actually understand what I'm saying. It's less that we're on opposite sides of an issue and more that we're simply talking past each other. A deist would say that God is never involved in human affairs, which is not what I'm saying. At all. What I am saying is that I believe that God has voluntarily limited his involvement in human affairs in certain ways. Case in point: God could have parted the Red Sea himself so that the Israelites could cross, but he chose to limit himself by requiring Moses' freewill obedience before he took action. The Bible is full of similiar examples, and it all ties to Genesis where God gave humans dominion over the earth (there's also something to be said for God always presenting himself in a way that can never be taken for granted -- we never have to wonder if it was God who acted because it's always in response to our obedience).

Perhaps it seems paradoxical to say that God is soveriegn and that man has unrestrained freewill, but I assure you, the paradox is only an apparent one.

[pmal]

Regarding Pharoah, I suppose it's possible that God overrode his freewill and forced him to harden his heart, but I don't believe he actually did and that you're reading scripture too literally (just as you read "A man's steps are directed by the LORD" too literally). "God hardened Pharoah's heart" reads to me like a figure of speech, similar to "I made my brother mad".

Not trying to pick a fight, but in all humbleness, I would suggest you re-read Romans 9 and see it for yourself.

I suppose you're referring to verse 17? I still think you're being too literal since God's purpose would have been fulfilled even if at the first display of God's power Pharoah had fallen to his knees and praised the name of Yahweh.

Sure, that would have served that purpose to an extent, but I believe and can see in the Bible that God hardened Pharaoh's heart on purpose, over and over, so that the Egyptians would see how every one of their so called "gods" were completely defeated and that Israel's God was God. The plagues were specific attacks against the different gods of the Egyptians of that day. That's why the Egyptians begged them to leave and gave them gold and other plunder because they were so defeated they were sick of them and just wanted them gone. God hardened Pharaoh's heart again after they left so that they would be dealt the final blow at the Red Sea and there would be no doubt. That theme was repeated when God said what He would do if Israel broke his covenant with them and served other gods. The destruction would be so bad that no one could misunderstand that the reason they had suffered so much and their cities were so destroyed was because they had abandoned God and worshipped other idols.

[Mountain Man]

Regarding Pharoah, I suppose it's possible that God overrode his freewill and forced him to harden his heart, but I don't believe he actually did and that you're reading scripture too literally (just as you read "A man's steps are directed by the LORD" too literally). "God hardened Pharoah's heart" reads to me like a figure of speech, similar to "I made my brother mad".

Not trying to pick a fight, but in all humbleness, I would suggest you re-read Romans 9 and see it for yourself.

I suppose you're referring to verse 17? I still think you're being too literal since God's purpose would have been fulfilled even if at the first display of God's power Pharoah had fallen to his knees and praised the name of Yahweh.

Sure, that would have served that purpose to an extent, but I believe and can see in the Bible that God hardened Pharaoh's heart on purpose, over and over, so that the Egyptians would see how every one of their so called "gods" were completely defeated and that Israel's God was God. The plagues were specific attacks against the different gods of the Egyptians of that day. That's why the Egyptians begged them to leave and gave them gold and other plunder because they were so defeated they were sick of them and just wanted them gone. God hardened Pharaoh's heart again after they left so that they would be dealt the final blow at the Red Sea and there would be no doubt. That theme was repeated when God said what He would do if Israel broke his covenant with them and served other gods. The destruction would be so bad that no one could misunderstand that the reason they had suffered so much and their cities were so destroyed was because they had abandoned God and worshipped other idols.

No, not just to an extent. If Pharaoh had immediately repented and worshiped God then it would have fully served God's purpose. There is nothing we can do that would upset God's ultimate will. He is sovereign no matter what choices we make.

[Preacherman777]

That theme was repeated when God said what He would do if Israel broke his covenant with them and served other gods. The destruction would be so bad that no one could misunderstand that the reason they had suffered so much and their cities were so destroyed was because they had abandoned God and worshipped other idols.

And to add to that God punished Israel by raising up other nations to defeat them. Just as he said of himself, he makes low and he exalts.


Mountain Man,
Now, the fact that God uses the obedience of men to bring about supernatural things is by no means an argument for God's limited involvement in the affairs of men. In fact, it serves to prove what I have been saying. God is involved and he uses those who obey and those who disobey to accomplish his will. All you really did is offer another example that proves the very point I've been making. If God were the kind of God you've been making him out to be, he would have left Moses and the Israelites to their own defenses in that moment. He would have allowed for the man made order of things to win the day and the Egyptians would have destroyed the Israelites. But no, God's hand was on the people of Israel and he intervened. Moses didn't part the sea by his own power or by any technology that the Israelites had, God did it. Another example, what did Joseph say to his brothers about his being sold into slavery "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." I can give you example after example that proves the point and yet, you can sit there and say that the highs and lows of Petra's career or any other obedient Christian bands career and the people that are effected by that are just the market and God is not involved. Really? Why? Is it because you think that if God were involved they would always be huge? I don't think so. You've said yourself that God's work can be accomplished to a small audience as well as a big audience, so why is it so hard to believe God is involved. Maybe God has his reasons for letting Petra be a small thing right now, but I assure you, as I have said, if it were his desire to make them big again, he would have no problem doing that. Would he do that by forcing people to suddenly love Petra. No, he would do that by the manipulation of circumstances in the lives of the right people to bring about the desired result, just as scripture shows that he always does. The thing is, there are examples that show God working in big ways and in little ways in the lives of people to serve his purposes. Does he manipulate every little thing we do? No, of course not. Every little thing we do does not effect God's plans and purposes, but I can assure you that the career of a band like Petra matters, just as the career of someone like Billy Graham matters, because it effects the gospel and if you think God is indifferent to that, then you are definitely on a different side.

[executioner]

Does anyone here know what happenned to the Christian rock scene? I started college in the 90's and Petra was still going strong. They were playing second and first tier venues in Houston. By the time I graduated they were in non traditional venues and Bob Hartman was not touring. AA seemed to be getting better but Mylon and Broken Heart seemed to stop visiting SE Texas. Same goes for Whitecross. I remember seeing AA a few times and even Geoff Moore and the Distance at well attended shows as late as 97. All I have is anecdotal evidence. I'd like some hard facts. Did the attendance drop that fast? Was there no way for these bands to make ends meet? Anyone have any answers? Is this covered in Romans 9?

I have a few reasons; the 90's was a really horrible decade for music. On the secular side grunge was just taking hold and on the CCM side P&W was gaining mojo, which I really think Petra is hugely responsible for. Another reason was alot of the major Christian Label sold out or really just stop marketing their artists. I think the 3 major things that hurt Petra in the 90's was 1. limited backing from label 2. member changes 3. poor albums. I think the 2 albums in the 90's that really damaged Petra was Unseen Power & No Doubt, but also in the same breath Petra made 2 of their best albums Wake Up Call & PP2.

[executioner]

I asked a very simple question and this is where we windup? GOD help us!!!!

It never fails; we just seem not to be able to help ourselves. BTW I do remember your orginial question.

[Preacherman777]

Hey, at least there is some discussion going on, which, in spite of the disagreements, I think has remained pretty civil.

[executioner]

That theme was repeated when God said what He would do if Israel broke his covenant with them and served other gods. The destruction would be so bad that no one could misunderstand that the reason they had suffered so much and their cities were so destroyed was because they had abandoned God and worshipped other idols.

And to add to that God punished Israel by raising up other nations to defeat them. Just as he said of himself, he makes low and he exalts.


Mountain Man,
Now, the fact that God uses the obedience of men to bring about supernatural things is by no means an argument for God's limited involvement in the affairs of men. In fact, it serves to prove what I have been saying. God is involved and he uses those who obey and those who disobey to accomplish his will. All you really did is offer another example that proves the very point I've been making. If God were the kind of God you've been making him out to be, he would have left Moses and the Israelites to their own defenses in that moment. He would have allowed for the man made order of things to win the day and the Egyptians would have destroyed the Israelites. But no, God's hand was on the people of Israel and he intervened. Moses didn't part the sea by his own power or by any technology that the Israelites had, God did it. Another example, what did Joseph say to his brothers about his being sold into slavery "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." I can give you example after example that proves the point and yet, you can sit there and say that the highs and lows of Petra's career or any other obedient Christian bands career and the people that are effected by that are just the market and God is not involved. Really? Why? Is it because you think that if God were involved they would always be huge? I don't think so. You've said yourself that God's work can be accomplished to a small audience as well as a big audience, so why is it so hard to believe God is involved. Maybe God has his reasons for letting Petra be a small thing right now, but I assure you, as I have said, if it were his desire to make them big again, he would have no problem doing that. Would he do that by forcing people to suddenly love Petra. No, he would do that by the manipulation of circumstances in the lives of the right people to bring about the desired result, just as scripture shows that he always does. The thing is, there are examples that show God working in big ways and in little ways in the lives of people to serve his purposes. Does he manipulate every little thing we do? No, of course not. Every little thing we do does not effect God's plans and purposes, but I can assure you that the career of a band like Petra matters, just as the career of someone like Billy Graham matters, because it effects the gospel and if you think God is indifferent to that, then you are definitely on a different side.

NAILED IT!!

I see alot of God can or God will throughout this thread and I think if you truly have faith in God that you would believe God will and not just God can. If you feel God only can then there will be a but in the equation and that shows doubt and to a point a lack of faith.

[jensskov]

I have no doubt that Bob has a special gift. I've been a collector of christian rock since childhood and I can't menition any other band that has been able to touch me with their songs again and again, and I have had so many spiritual expeciences with Petra's songs over the years. And when I go back and listen to them, they touch me over and over again.
I'm amazied every time.

Of course it's also great music, courage to follow their calling amd so on, but I'm sure the holy spirit has a great hand in it too!

[Mountain Man]

Mountain Man,
Now, the fact that God uses the obedience of men to bring about supernatural things is by no means an argument for God's limited involvement in the affairs of men. In fact, it serves to prove what I have been saying. God is involved and he uses those who obey and those who disobey to accomplish his will. All you really did is offer another example that proves the very point I've been making. If God were the kind of God you've been making him out to be, he would have left Moses and the Israelites to their own defenses in that moment. He would have allowed for the man made order of things to win the day and the Egyptians would have destroyed the Israelites. But no, God's hand was on the people of Israel and he intervened. Moses didn't part the sea by his own power or by any technology that the Israelites had, God did it. Another example, what did Joseph say to his brothers about his being sold into slavery "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." I can give you example after example that proves the point and yet, you can sit there and say that the highs and lows of Petra's career or any other obedient Christian bands career and the people that are effected by that are just the market and God is not involved. Really? Why? Is it because you think that if God were involved they would always be huge? I don't think so. You've said yourself that God's work can be accomplished to a small audience as well as a big audience, so why is it so hard to believe God is involved. Maybe God has his reasons for letting Petra be a small thing right now, but I assure you, as I have said, if it were his desire to make them big again, he would have no problem doing that. Would he do that by forcing people to suddenly love Petra. No, he would do that by the manipulation of circumstances in the lives of the right people to bring about the desired result, just as scripture shows that he always does. The thing is, there are examples that show God working in big ways and in little ways in the lives of people to serve his purposes. Does he manipulate every little thing we do? No, of course not. Every little thing we do does not effect God's plans and purposes, but I can assure you that the career of a band like Petra matters, just as the career of someone like Billy Graham matters, because it effects the gospel and if you think God is indifferent to that, then you are definitely on a different side.

I give up. That you continue to say the things I've highlighted tells me that you have completely failed to understand my position as you rush headlong into arguing against things that I have told you directly that I don't believe. One would get the impression that you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point and don't much care what other people have to say.

[Preacherman777]

No, I'm telling you what it seems to me that I am hearing you and Brent saying. All you have said is that God can interfere but that doesn't mean he does. Well, I've given you many examples of how he does and even his own words that say he does and you have denied that they really mean what they say. I'm sorry, but I don't know how else to understand the claims you have made.

[Mountain Man]

I'll just put it like this: we agree on a fundamental level, that is we both believe that God is soveriegn and that he takes an active interest in the affairs of men. Our disagreement is simply over the extent of God's involvement. I am of the opinion that it is less than what you think, and you are of the opinion that it is more than what I think.

[brent]

"God hardened Pharoah's heart" reads to me like a figure of speech, similar to "I made my brother mad".

Simple, yet Brilliant.