So who played what?

[rbnewsdesk]

I am taking the post subject off on a tangeant for a minute so please bare with me. This question of who really played what instruments in Petra recordings has found itself in several posts in one form or another but I have to admit the one thing I was disappointed in when I "rediscovered" Petra a few years ago was that the live band (or at least those credited as the main instrument players n singers on the studio albums) ... well, I guess the best way to put it is I felt cheated in that lots of studio musicians were used in place of or instead of the band members listed on the album. Not cheated by the songs or the music created, but when I think of Petra and band, I would have that image of a tight cohesive unit of musicians who played live and in studio (if other posts here serve me right, then the definition as a band for Petra based on my view would primarily be the "Beyond Belief" through "Wake Up Call" line up and for that matter this current line up - and that would be subject to debate because of no F/T drummer at the time, but live these guys are tight musically). To me "band" means groups that not only could a casual listener (not a hard cord fan) identify by sound but by all or most members both individually and collectively ... The Beatles, U2, Queen, Zepplin, even a band with different components like Van Halen and the Stones come to mine.

Tangeant off, subject matter on. Can we clarify who really played what on the albums, and more importantly, who didn't. For example, based on varying accounts, John Lawry did all or very little of the keyboard/synths for Beat the System, and Louie hardly did any studio work especially during the JDB era. And helpful links, articles, etc... would be appreciated.

[executioner]

It has been known for years that Louie did very little studio work on any of the albums. Louie has said himself that he drums with emotion and it is very hard to find emotion in a studio. He is best at playing live shows. It is also up to the producer what musicians he uses in recording an album. I am sorry to disappoint you but very rarely will you find a group that uses all the same musicians in the studio that you see in concert. Bon Jovi is one of those groups and also U2. So don't be disappointed at Petra for this issue, this is just the way the industry works.

[Michael]

Heck, check your liner notes... for many of Petra's albums there have been more studio musicians than band members. And I know for a fact that the members of Newsboys play all (or at least most) of the instruments on their CDs, but not necessarily the same instruments they play on stage (the guitar on a particular song may have been played by Peter Furler, for example, although on stage he usually performs lead vocals and plays drums). To echo executioner... it's just the way things work behind the scenes. It sells records to say that it was these five particular guys; it makes good recordings to use seasoned session musicians where necessary.

[rbnewsdesk]

I realize that many bands have musicians that back them in the studio and that are properly credited. I think what part of my problem was during the JDB era...the liner notes pretty much listed the band as the band. I fell away from Petra around the time John Schlitt came on board (not because of him but things going on in my life), so I come back around God Fixation/Double Take, with this idea that the band is the band even with the personnel changes. Then I come to the Petra Zone and find out that some members didnt even play that much on certain albums. I'm over it and have been for a while, just was bringing that up as a thought starter. Executioneer, I am not meaning to pick on Louie at all, he was just the example that came to mind. My intent was to find out who actually played what and why (liner notes are always good Michael and that's a duh for me...but for example at one time there was a post of an JDB interview where he shared some of the workings "inside the studio" and that is what I was kind of getting at, more from my own knowledge and a historical perspective.

And I guess one thing I am surprized by ... I thought of this after I posted. No mention of the Petra is a ministry first concept, which I totally agree upon. And in that context that makes sense as far as the approach used by Petra during recordings, touring, etc...

[brent]

Tangeant off, subject matter on. Can we clarify who really played what on the albums, and more importantly, who didn't. For example, based on varying accounts, John Lawry did all or very little of the keyboard/synths for Beat the System, and Louie hardly did any studio work especially during the JDB era. And helpful links, articles, etc... would be appreciated.

The Stones. Well that's funny. If you read up on the Stones, you will see a slew of players that are not in the band, constantly recording and playing live with them. I know of one session where the drumming was so bad, that almost every beat was slid into time in Pro Tools by a 20 year old assistant to the assistant engineer.

For Petra, all of the MIDI programming and mapping of the drums and bass (there were NO drummers or bass players at all) for BTS was done by a guy in LA on the Fairlight. John Lawry came into the picture after a majority of the record was done, and added his touches.

Let me explain something. Some people can't play in the studio for various reasons. Maybe they can't groove alone. Maybe they didn't get along with the producer. Maybe their ideas were not the vision for the project. In all cases, producers generally have drummer and bass player combos that work quickly, and do what they are told.

Louie is a self admitted live drummer. Louie has some great ideas, and knows how to rethink a song, and give his opinions and various options. He took one of ours and made it pop, when it was going to shred. Completely made it different. A good different. We wanted a live drummer. Live drummers play less like a click track and swing. It is not perfect, but it allows the music to breath and allows others to play with expression in places that they might not have felt it before, playing to a machine (which in and of itself is far from accurate). I would rather have a guy like Louie swinging in a human groove, than a machine drifting in time. You can always bring the human back.

Albums are made not to be true representations of a band, They are made to sell a couple of songs, which are a formula now days. This is why many artists buy songs that are pretty much done by the time they walk in to overdub vocals. This is true for alot of pop music. It saves the artist and label time and money.

As for players, you would be surprised how few Nashville guitar players like Brent Mason, Dann Huff, Randy Thomas, etc play on 80% of the country records, when all of these artists have bands. It is about time, money, formula, etc. The same thing happens in rap. There are a few "talented" (and I used that term loosely, because they would be nothing without a computer) guys that provide the loops, "beats" (how uneducated) for the major stars.

It happens live to. Mich Malloy sang back stage for David Coverdale of Whitesnake, when David couldn't sing well. Then you have Bob Carlisle (yeah the Alies and Butterfly Kisses guy) singing BGVs on Whitesnake and many, many other 80s metal band records. Eddie Van Halen played all of the guitar on Michael Jackson's Thriller record. But these guys never get a mention on the CD liner notes.

It's all about the band protecting a bands image in many cases. Petra pretty much disclosed this info, so I don't think that they are deceiving anyone. But bands need to look good, and appear to have it all. If not, it would appear to be what it is, assembled and puppetry.

[charl]

Man I loved Thriller when I was a kid. I tried playing that record awhile ago and it was absolutely wratched.

Oh what were we talking about? Yeah session musicians. Music has not been the guys getting together at strategic places in front of a horn for a very long time. When production became a more integral part of recording, for better or worse things changed.
One thing I find interesting about this is that now, when you hear some group referred to as a 'good live band' it really means they are just a good band.

[executioner]

I still think even though Mark sang BGV's on those albums he was very limited in playing on the albums. I know the producer has final say so on who plays on what, but I think it does bring some mixed signals to fans when some of the actual band members are not aloud to lend their talents to the mix. JAH was a great album, but I think it would have been even better if all band members could have played on that album. Also listen to WUC, The drumming and low end on that album is so great because they used Louie and his talents. I think WUC is the best drumming I've heard from Petra.

[brent]

I still think even though Mark sang BGV's on those albums he was very limited in playing on the albums. I know the producer has final say so on who plays on what, but I think it does bring some mixed signals to fans when some of the actual band members are not aloud to lend their talents to the mix. JAH was a great album, but I think it would have been even better if all band members could have played on that album. Also listen to WUC, The drumming and low end on that album is so great because they used Louie and his talents. I think WUC is the best drumming I've heard from Petra.

I think that it had nothing to do with Louie, and everything to do with a complete outsider, with no Petra history, providing the big sounding mix. Bob himself has stated that it was the biggest sounding Petra record. All of the Elefonte records were small and narrow in comparison. Louies parts were probably still edited.