BEER SPONSOR?

[kngser88]

Wine isn't always wine if you do some research over 4 fdifferent laguages...I found this very interesting article. http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/ ... the_bible/

[brent]

I have done research. I asked Jews themselves.

Our church believe it or not lets them rent our facility for their holidays. We have had some interesting conversations. I even heard some Christian jokes. I felt like a Mormon attending the Southern Baptist Convention.

Wine is wine is wine.

Go back to the Hebrew. Hebrew has three words root words that leave little explanation. It isn't like Coin or Classic Greek which differ as they are based on socialogical divisions of people.

[kngser88]

So your saying that jesus is a bunch of crap because he is a sinless person leading people to sin...especially providing a fermented wine to people that commented on its ability to get people drunk. Bring on the wine to the church make it a real country club!!

[charl]

Only if you are wrongly assuming that drinking is a sin and are placing that presupposition onto the text. We call that eisegesis.
I know that's the cool way to do it these days, but it does nothing but cause problems. And I think a good exegetical case could be made that the scriptures consider this to be far worse than drinking. If I were to give any real admonition in this debate, it would be stop doing THAT!!! Very dangerous.

Fire fighters and victims can die of smoke inhalation. So why would a person want to breathe in tar? Pot I can some what understand better than cigs. But they both destroy something in the body, and both are done out of habit once the body is hooked.

Pot has been found to have similar effects on the body as those of cigarettes. So they would both be disqualified by this argument.

However, I would not say smoking is a sin, it is merely as Brent said, stupid.

[BForm]

I would more likely boycott the show if the Prayer of Jabez franchise sponsored it.

Jonathan, I can't stop chuckling at your comment. I love it.

I once knew a friend who was abusing God's gift of sex, do I decided to boycott it...........NOT! When people abuse something God blesses, it is just that; an abuse of something that God blesses.

Look what happens when we do that. The Catholic church has "traditionally" viewed sex as a necessary digression for the purpose of creating children for the kingdom of God, so they forbid Priests to marry. Since well before the days of Martin Luther the Priesthood has been riddled with sexual sin. Now look at North America, the only continent where the unbiblical position of abstinence for the Christian took hold. We have the highest alcoholism rate of any industrialized nation.

Taking something God blesses and calling it sin because some abuse it results in even greater sin.

[BForm]

If you look at the text in 1 Corinthians where Paul is talking about communion, look at what he does and doesn't say. He chastises them for making a mockery of the Lord's table. He says "some of you are hungry and others are drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in?"

Isn't it painfully obvious that the wine they were using was real alcohol that was capable of making you drunk? And look what Paul does. He chastizes them for their lack of order and all the bickering and complaining. Here was his opportunity to end the debate and say "what are you guys doing using this kind of wine?" But he didn't, did he!

And as far as the guy who said we are saying "Jesus is a bunch of crap", you need to settle down your biased emotions and let the scriptures interpret themselves and not let your experiences interpret the scriptures.

As for the Romans 14 discussion on causing a brother to stumble, it's true we need to be cautious about everything we do in public. Yet Paul, even while teaching this principle, still continues to teach those that take the more restrictive approach and refers to them as the "weak in faith". I didn't say it, he did.

[brent]

So your saying that jesus is a bunch of crap because he is a sinless person leading people to sin...especially providing a fermented wine to people that commented on its ability to get people drunk. Bring on the wine to the church make it a real country club!!

Well get this. I was mixing a funeral service at a large church I worked for. The guy that died, Ernie, was a Lutheran. When they have a funeral, they have communion. When they have communion, they serve real wine. When they serve real wine, the tradition is to pour enough for every seat in the house, reguardless of how many show up. So, at the reception, I see the pastor who officiated walk in, and he was LIT! His eyes were red, boy! So, that's when I learned that they consider the wine a sacred, holy thing, since it represents the blood of Christ. the pastor HAS to finish off what was left over. We had about 1,000 seats. About 200 showed up.

Luther was a direct split from the Catholic tradition, which was a direct split from the NT church. So, the tradition runs deep. Orthodox churches in the US mostly use juice. They are a split from the Catholic church as well.

[BForm]

Brent, I think the Christian thing to do would have been to help the poor Pastor out. He shouldn't have had to bare that burden alone!

[kngser88]

So what you guys are saying is that God Will tempt you? Those people are looking to get drunk so jesus comes and makes more wine to add to their wants to get drunK, If you read it in the context as you claim it is in. This just seems way out of character of a God that is called "friend of sinners"

[brent]

No, They didn't come to get drunk per se.

Look, the Corinthian church was the most evil church of all time. Anyone that uses it as a model is fruity. They did everything wrong. Paul sent possibly four letters to them (as RC says), the last two were possibly the second book of Corinthians. There was a letter that we don't have that REALLY had to set them straight. Paul was hot when he heard about the incestuous affair going on, lack of church discipline (which people don't like to talk about today), the misuses of tongues (reverting to the babbling from the pagans that is still practiced today in many churches), etc, etc. Those people corrupted the church. The church was no more a temptor to get drunk than it was to have their orgies by females being present in the same room.

Look. We have free will. God does not control us like robots. God does not dangle bad things in front of us. But satan does. He is allowed to. Read Job. What he can do to Job, he can do to us.

What does satan do? He bastardizes the things of Christ, perverts them enough to make them his own, and tempt us. We can resist and he will flee. Or, we can give in. There is no battle with satan. That is heresy. There is only resisting. There is no rebuking satan. Even Michael the Arkangel said, "The LORD rebuke thee." It is a battle that has already been won. We can live in the victory, or in the slavery.

Drinking one sip of wine at communion is only a sin, when it is abused. We have enough scripture that says not to be drunk with wine, to be sober minded, etc. We have scripture in Proverbs that describe a man without God and his Word is like a drunk man, hanging on for dear life in the crews nest on a ship in a storm. He is blown here and there, hanging on for dear life, freaking out. So we know not to ABUSE a substance.

Abusing a substance could be partaking of too many Milky Ways, Cokes, Coffees, or even good things like exercise, time studying Gods Word, instead of living it out practically. It is NOT the substance always that is wrong, it is the nonregenerated condition of your heart and nonrenewed mind that causes that substance to be a god in your life.

[BForm]

Too many Milky Ways? Now you're a meddlin'.

Seriously, Brent to most of the words right of my....uh....finger tips. Hopefully we're both getting them from the Holy Spirit, or at least a Spirit guided sense of logic.

God gives us many good gifts. Those gifts can all turn into idolatry. I once heard a Pastor address this issue and say "What the parents do in moderation, the children will do in excess." Everyone was amening him as if this was true biblical wisdom. But the Proverbs plainly teach moderation:

Look at the references to honey in Proverbs 24 & 25. Do you really think this is just about honey, or about all of life?

Look at Proverbs 23. It talks about overworking, overeating, drunkards, etc.

We all seem to be pretty level headed about most of these things. But, for some reason, when the conversation is about wine (or beer), suddenly a whole new set of unbiblical rules are applied that aren't consistently applied elsewhere.

I wonder, in the end, which will have done more damage to families? Drunkeness? Or distant, workaholic fathers. Distant, workaholic, even ministryaholic fathers that ignore their own children are everywhere. Especially on Elder and Deacon boards, and in the pulpit.

[charl]

So what you guys are saying is that God Will tempt you? Those people are looking to get drunk so jesus comes and makes more wine to add to their wants to get drunK, If you read it in the context as you claim it is in. This just seems way out of character of a God that is called "friend of sinners"

Are you refering to two (or more) different passages here?
The wedding feast at Cana account does not mention people coming to get drunk-they came to celebrate a marriage. Now one might infer that the cheap wine usually came out last because the senses of the guests were a little duller at that time, but it does not mention drinking for the sake of getting drunk in this passage.

I would again warn against loading heavy burdens on other's backs and not lifting a finger to help them...

[charl]

Oh and aside: personally I do not ascribe to the 'two letters' theory of the structure of 2 Corinthians. At one time I thought it feasible, but even studying the letter in English reveals one continuous train of thought throughout-too much for it to have originally been two pieces. Keep the super apostles in mind and read the whole thing looking for continuity.

I also tend to think that since that latter section is part of the second letter, it seems probable to me that 1 Corinthians is the painful letter (as opposed to 10-13 of 2 Corinthians, which is usually how I've heard that theory go)

Now THIS is the fun stuff!

[Susannah]

But, on the otherhand, where did Jesus go? Where would he go today? If he were on the earth today, I do not think that he would be hanging out at the Crystal Cathedral. I think that he would be in the clubs on Fri and Sat night, insighting thought and conversation. I think that he would be at the secular events where the lost people are. Why not use a secular venue for a Christian show? Why not have the lost comfortable coming to a show, where they hear the gospel of Christ? They aren't coming to our churches.

That is so true. I went to two Stryper shows last weekend. One was at a Christian club in Minneapolis. The other was at the Chicago House of Blues. The HOB had a lot of people there smoking and drinking, and the way that Michael Sweet presented the message of the gospel was different from the way he presented it the previous night at the Christian club. He did it in such a way that the 80's metal throwbacks would relate to more and be more receptive to. I was really impressed by that, because I know most of these people wouldn't step foot into a church, yet they're hearing the gospel in a way that they can relate to. From spending some time with the guys I could really see that this is where their heart is. They are all about reaching the lost and building the Kingdom of God.