Creed, He Came, He Saw, He Conquered Question

[ErioL]

I have learned that the Apostles creed is unbiblical. Specifically the line that says Jesus descended and set the captives free. Jesus didnt descend to hell freeing us then rise. Jesus never went to hell. He fought many temptation by satan here on earth. However he didnt go to hell.

He died on the cross at that moment we were free. Then was put into the tomb and on the 3rd day he rose to Heaven

The same goes for he came he saw he conquered. He didnt conguere hell. He defeated satan on Jesus turf not in hell....

Unless by hell it means he conguered satan

In Christ

Rich

Jesus became sin on our behalf. Jesus became like Satan, though that may shock you, but that just shows the extent of His love, that He would take on the exact opposite of His character. 2 Cor 5:21 says he was made sin on our behalf. And since Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death, I believe Jesus did indeed descend into hell where he conquered satan. Revelations 1:18 I think it is says that he has conquered death and hell.

[Shell]

Satan isn't the opposite of Jesus; he's the opposite of the archangel Michael. He's a fallen angel who wanted to be equal to God.

[charl]

Whoa, Jesus did not 'become like Satan'. I think a review of the doctrine of imputation is in order here. He became sin-not became sinful. Just as his righteousness is foreign to us, from outside of us and placed upon us, so is our sinfulness to him. Not his-but reckoned to him. Not his-but placed upon him. He never ever ceased being the perfect Son of God, just as we never cease being sinners saved by grace.

[brent]

Whoa.

Jesus could not, and did not become like Satan. That is so unscriptural that it isn't even funny. You have been listening to Kenneth Dopeland.

1. Hell is a literal place. Literal people will be there. They will feel literal pain in their literal bodies. Jesus Christ committed his SPIRIT to God's hands. His body laid in the tomb for the three Roman days. (That's another myth by misapplication of the Word. Friday afternoon to Sunday morning is not three full days.) When he was seen again by his disciples, they still saw a recognizable man, with the holes in his hands, side, etc, because he had not ascended from this planet, with his earthly body, to become glorified as we will one day.

So the comment made earlier about Christ's descending to set the captives free, is closer to Jesus coming to earth, rather than going to hell. There are no captives in hell. There are people that are there of their own volition. Captives are people that were free, were taken against their will, and held against their will. True, those people probably do not want to be there now, and would like to get out now, but they all had a chance, and denied Christ and/or are fallen angels.

2. IF there was salvation for the damned in hell, then why does Jesus even bother bringing up the rich man and Lazarus? If the rich man had a hope, because Jesus was going there shortly to get people out, then why didn't Jesus mention that? That doctrine is never taught. Since judgement has not been rendered yet on anyone, I believe that this story is prophetic, not a parable.

3. IF there was salvation for the damned in hell, then God changes his mind about some people in scripture. There are whole lineages that are banned in the OT, because of their opposition of Israel. This doesn't line up with the character of God as being just. Besides that, how can you burn a soul anyway? The torment is not effecting the physical bodies of those people, because they have not been resurrected yet. The dead unbelievers are the last to be resurrected. So, where they are now is in seperation, in death. All believers are in peace with God in spirit ala Paul.

4. God created Lucifer. Lucifer was not an angel. He is a cherub. That is a notch up the food chain, protector of the throne of God Almighty. God is not the opposite of evil. God is not the opposite of Lucifer. God cannot be evil, but that doesn't make him the opposite, because that assumes that there is one of equal ability on the opposing side. There is none. That is why Jesus Christ, who was present when the world began, accomplished victory.

5. No where is scripture does any angel, or a cherub, have creative power. This is why all of the "demons are aliens" thing is a crock. They obviously have some form of a body that can be seen, or else people in the bible would not have seen them. Since they have no creative power, then they have to be something, unless God makes them something per ministry to us. Who knows. All I know is that it is possible for us to feed them, and not know that we did. That's scriptural.

Angels and cheubs have free will, just like we do. They must have a soul, a mind, etc., because they make up their mind to love God or Satan. They have the ability to sin, ot not. They have the ability to argue, as Michael did with Satan over the body of Moses. So they aren;t mindless. So, if people in hell have a chance for salvation, then you have to expand that and ask, are the angels redeemable? If not, why not? They are God's creation too.

7. The bible says that we will walk on the bones of those that received judgement by fire. So, how we gonna do that if literal bodies do not receive hell fire?

The big answer is that at some point, God has to say "STOP! This is IT! NO MORE! Render payment in full for your life. Why should I let you into my kingdom? Do I know you? What have you done with your talents? What is this blood on your hands? Where are the fruits of your labor?" At some point, the trial will be held, and judgement will be served. This whole salvation from hell is a last ditch effort to postpone the certain, and make people feel better.

People believe today that everyone must go to heaven, because God is a good, loving God. Well he is. But he is also a God that HATES sin. The bible does not say that he does not get angry. He is SLOW to wrath. He has a Rightrous Wrath. He was sorry for creating us at one point that he wiped the slate clean started over with Noah. He was so hacked at the flaming homo non believers that he rained hell fire from heaven to wipe that place off of the earth. God gets VERY hacked off when we live like this. Look what he did to Egypt. Look what he has done to nearly everyone that has opposed Israel. If history is an indicator, Hitler won't be in heaven folks.

[charl]

That is so unscriptural that it isn't even funny. You have been listening to Kenneth Dopeland.

Heehee that is a little funny (not the heresy part though of course).

[e5c4p3artist]

It is a common belief among many biblical scholars that Jesus descended to the place where the old testament saints were to take them to Heaven after His death.

Christ is the only way to God. Since His blood had not been shed, old testament saints could not get to heaven yet. Their souls were held in a "purgatory" like place. Once he died, they could receive salvation and Christ descended to wherever they were to free them.

There are a couple passages that can be interpreted to support this theory. I do not know them all off the top of my head. One is Ephesians 4:9-10. Another is in one of the extra books of the Catholic Bible that are not included in the mainstream protestant Bibles.

It is the concept around which the popular Steve Green song "He Holds The Keys" is written, for which I have searched the entire net and can't seem to find the lyrics anywhere! Odd, I really thought you could find anything out here - let alone the lyrics to a popular 80's song.

I guess If I ever find them, I'll post them. It's a pretty powerful song.

[e5c4p3artist]

Hey, look at that. I have a Steve Green greatest hits CD laying right here.

Hey, look at that. It has the lyrics to all the songs printed.

-------- He Holds The Keys - by Steve Green ------

Death rides blackened clouds across the sky
The Son of Man lays down to die
With every pounding blow upon the nail
Thunder rumbles all through Hell
And from death's barren womb the captives cry
Who is there to free us should He die?

His grave becomes a door; He enters in
To face the author of all sin
Defying death and the grave he takes their keys
And with them every captive frees
And from death's barren womb the captives cry
Arise for our redemption draweth nigh

Chorus:
For He holds the keys
He holds the keys
And though we've been held captive
At long last we are free
For He holds the keys

Against the gates of Hell I now resist
For the shackles that had torn my wrists
Lay before me now upon the ground
To sin I am no longer bound
For from death's barren womb He heard me cry
And loosed the chains that bound me to a lie

(chorus)

And to all the things that have kept you away
That keep you defeated day after day after day
The heartache that nobody sees
That eats at your sould like a cruel disease
He who set the captives free
It is He, it is He who holds your keys

(chorus)

He holds the keys!

-------------------------------------

There. Now the lyrics to the song are somewhere on the net. =)

[brent]

Yeah, that is Abraham's bosom. That is not hell. This was a place of piece. It has a gulf fixed between it and the place of torment that the other people were in, according to the story that Jesus told. So, why would Jesus have to go there to do any evangelism if they were on the peaceful side, and the unbelieving sinful people were in torment?

Luke 16:21-23
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


Just trying to stimulate thought. I wonder if anyone has had a brain freeze over this kind of thing? I am still looking for the verses that deal with females being unable to shave body hair, having their hair in a bun, lookin' frumpy in those sexy blue denim gauchos and cullotes, while the guys get to look all pimped out.

[PetFCtr]

I dont think I received a clear answer on this. Thats why I'm writting again. In the song Creed. the line where it says "he decended and set the captives free. What did bob mean when he wrote that..

There are some who say that Jesus after he died on the cross and was put into the tomb that he decended to hell, is that what bob and what the apostles creed is saying. No where in the Gospels does it say that happened.

His spirit didnt go to hell. He commanded his spirit to go with the father. Then he ASCENDED to the father in heaven..

In Christ
RIch

[Chuck]

Not sure what Bob was saying. Sometimes songs are written but not necessarily scripturally sound, see "I Fly Away"! I guess if he meant by "decended" coming from Heaven to Earth then that would be sound. If not, then no that is not sound.

Not everything is to be taken literally. Luke 16:21-23 is a Parable not a historical event.

[Petra_Pete]

If I may add my $0.02 worth....
The passage from Peter is clear that Jesus went to Hell to preach the Good News, so I believe we can say that part of the Apostles' Creed without worry of heresy: IT IS BIBLICAL. In the song Creed, I believe the idea that Bob was communicating was that the "captives set free" were us. Sin held us captive until set free by Christ. BUT it does not say that Jesus offered an alter call in Hell. Very important because it shows that there are no second chances as some theologies mistakenly teach. Once you die, then the judgement. No second chances. If there were second chances, why accept Christ now? Where would the urgency be? As for the "when did Jesus do this?" since he did say to the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." That is another question. I believe it was when he said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" In other words, God the Father turn his face away from God the Son. Hell is the absence of God's love. Jesus was forsaken; in Hell if you will. But not for too long because a relatively short time later he declares "It is finished" or tetelistie in Greek. This word being a commercial word meaning that the deabt is paid in full and nothing more is required.
Sorry if I rambled. I hope this helps.

[3rd_DAY Fan]

I think he did go to hell and I personally believe he did, remember in the word somewhere where it was said that he was in the heart of the earth for three days? I am led to believe that the present hell is located in the center of the earth.

Also if he took the keys of death hell and the grave where did he take them from? Ask yourself that question

And the Jesus became sin and died for us. Where do sinners go when they die?

[brent]

Sinners that reject Christ go to hell, which was not made for us humans, but for the devil and his angels. If Christ were to go to hell, it would mean that he rejected the Father, aligned himself with Satan, and would have to spend eternity there, just as everyone else would.

You should ask yourself why people could be in hell, when judgement has not been handed down yet, as the dead without Christ are not resurrected yet? Why would people go to hell, who did not have fair warning? If there is a judgemet seat, why does the judgemet come before the trial?

There is nobody in hell yet. The devil is not there. His angels are not there.

There is no indication that hell is at the center of the earth. There is a great gulf fixed between heaven and hell. Therefore, heaven and hell are in another dimension, or are in outer space, etc. Heaven comes down to earth, not up from the center of it.

[beak]

Creed also says that the angel rolled away the rock in front of the tomb, is that also not scriptual? I don't think it is ever mentioned who rolled the stone away. That verse has always puzzled me.

[charl]

the decent to hell may also refer to a victory there, it really is rather ambiguous.

May I re-assert Calvin's argument from the Institutes? Though we don't know what Bob thinks this sentence means, there are plenty of possible explanations that have been put forth. Calvin, in his thorough manner, mentions a few of them before ripping the ones he doesn't agree with to shreds (gotta love that ).