Creed, He Came, He Saw, He Conquered Question

[Chuck]

The passage from Peter is clear that Jesus went to Hell to preach the Good News,] Huh??????? That is a contradiction. Why would Jesus go to "Hell" and tell people that via His death and resurrection people will spend forever with Him? Was He taunting them? Everyone should look at Ecc. 9:5,6 &10 and Psalm 146:3-4. I had NEVER heard or read these scriptures prior to about a year ago and I have attended church for 25 years. Pretty powerful verses.

I read throughout and have heard for years that people who reject Christ will be sent to "Hell" and as a result punished forever and ever and ever, etc. A year ago I asked myself this question......what about those who have never heard of Christ and His salvation? The PARABLE in Luke 16 has nothing to do with this. A Parable cannot be literal and historic. If it could then I may have a difficult time removing the 2X4 from my eye! I guess I was lucky to have been born in America post crucifiction. If I had been born in China or Africa, for example, I would be condemned forever simply because of my lack of information. Yikes. Food for thought.

[charl]

People are not sent to hell for 'lack of information' nor for rejecting Christ, but as a just sentence for their sin and rebellion against God. As Paul says in Romans, general revelation is enough to condemn these people without having to expressly reject Christ. Secondly, do not make the mistake of assuming that God owes us his mercy. He told us himself that he does not.

I do believe (and have heard many stories to this effect) that Christ will reveal himself to the person who truly seeks him-because it is he himself who puts that desire in their hearts.

There is not concensus about the Peter passage. Nor is there consensus that the rich man and lazarus is merely a parable. Many people think it is an actual description of an actual event.

[Chuck]

The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father. If sin and rebellion is the cause of a billion year sentence in a burning hell then hell will be full and Heaven will be virtually empty. I sin daily. I would guess, without wanting to remove a 2X4, that most everyone on this site sins daily.

The church has a tendancy to contradict itself. Punishment for sin and rebellion against God.......Jesus will reveal Himself......I have heard that arguement before. The church needs to answer the question I asked myself a year ago. What about those who have never heard? I will give a scenario on this one later.

Luke 16 cannot be an actual event. I have to go to work now but can prove that later if anyone is truly interested. It will take a long post and may require an email as opposed to a posting.

[judboy]

Eph. 4

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ�s gift. 8 Therefore He says:


� When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.�

9 (Now this, �He ascended��what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


Also, to the most recent rabit trail:

People do not go to hell for rejecting Jesus (or not hearing about Jesus), they go to hell for breaking God's Law (Ten Commandments).

Think of it this way, if you jump out of a plane at 40,000 feet without a parachute what will kill you? Breaking the law of gravity of course! You didn't die primarily because you did not put on the parachute (Jesus), but because you broke the law of gravity (Ten Commandments). Jesus is the parachute that will allow us to escape the law of gravity (Ten Commandments), and you will go to hell if you reject Him and do not put Him on, but the primary reason you go to hell is for breaking God's Law.

Read Romans 1 and you will see that all mankind is without excuse to continue in sin. God has given every man a conscience, and conscience means "With Knowledge". In other words, every time you or a remote tribe in the middle of the jungle sins, you do it with knowledge that it is wrong! God has given light to every man, and if that man follows that light; God will give him more, and He will reveal Himself to the man.

[BeReady]

Just another point of clarification. I realize that some of you have touched on this already, but we need to remember that the translators of the KJV used the word "Hell" to translate two different Greek Words--"Hades" and "Gehenna." The word "Hades" is the equivalent to the Hebrew word "Sheol." It refers to the abode of the dead-- both righteous and unrighteous. "Gehenna" originally referred to a garbage dump outside of the city walls of Jerusalem. This is the term that Jesus' used when he made reference to the place where the unrighteous would spend eternity. When early Christian writers refer to Jesus descending into hell, they always use the Greek word Hades--which refers to the general abode of the dead. When Jesus died on the cross he would have automatically entered this realm. To my knowledge there are no early Christian manuscripts that say Jesus ever went to Gehenna. To avoid confusion in this area I suggest using a good concordance. There are many good free ones on line.

[winterlens]

Jesus says to the thief, "You will be with me today in Paradise" (Lk 23.43). He says to Mary Magdalene, "Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to my father" (Jn 20.17).

Very clearly, paradise is not heaven, else one would expect that Christ would have both ascended and seen his father. It seems, then, that when he preached to spirits in prison, he proclaimed the good news to the saints who had gone before who were in "paradise."

The only real indication that we have of what paradise is comes from his story concerning Lazarus.

[charl]

Good analogy, Judboy. This is what I was saying.

Jesus is the only way precisely because we are all sinners bound for hell. We cannot achieve sinlessness in this life-and stand condemned for that. Christ has made a way for us to be delivered from this sentence-which is totally right and just in itself. Those who are condemned have no wrong done to them.

[Chuck]

Luke 23:24 does not say that "you will be with me today in paradise". The grave/tomb is not paradise. Jesus was going to the grave. "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise".

"People do not go to hell for rejecting Jesus. They go to hell for not keeping the 10 Commandments". If that were the case then.....why did Jesus have to die? Why does Jesus say that no man comes to the Father except through the Son?

Many say that the parable of Lazarus is a true story. If that were the case and if the Rich Man is in hell or will be in hell which of the commandments did he violate to deserve this justice? This parable says nothing of his breaking the commandments. As this is a parable the Rich Man represents Judah. Lazarus represents Eliezer from Gen: 15:2-3. It would take about 10 pages to fully explain this. I will gladly e-mail anyone wanting this.

Final item:

Here is a theoretical Judgment Day for an African girl named Suba who died at age 17 while giving birht to her first child. Some of this is tongue in cheek and the little g is on purpose.

god--what do you have to say for yourself, Suba?
Suba---I'm sorry, your holiness, I am frightened and don't understand the question.
god---There is nothing to be frightened of, my child. I won't hurt you (yet). Tell me about your life.
Suba---I was born three of seven children. My mother and father loved us very much. They taught us many things like, food getting, fire cooking, clothes making, the rules of our tribe and how to worship the great maker.
god---That would be me. I am the Great Maker. Tell me about that. How did you worship me?
Suba---We were told to treat everyone in the tribe real good. That is what the great maker wanted all of us to do---be real good to people. We were told that the great maker would then be real good to us. Life was pretty good except we didn't have much food to eat and when a bad tribe from far away came and burned our village and killed many of our people.
god---Did you hate those bad men who killed your people?
Suba--Yes, of course we hated them.
god---Do you know that it is a sin to hate?
Suba---What is sin?
god---Something bad.
Suba---I knew it was bad to back talk my parents.
god---You mean to tell me you have never done anything bad that you knew was bad?
Suba---My mother would hit me with a stick if I did anything bad. When I was having my baby it hurt a hundred times more than when my mother hit me with a stick.
god---you know, Suba, I had a son.
Suba---I'll bet you were real proud of him.
god---No one will ever know how much. All his life he taught people to love each other and to forgive each other for being bad and even to love their enemies.
Suba---sounds like a nice man. we never heard of him in Africa. I wish your son could have saved my tribe from those bad people when I was little.
god---my son can save people even if they are dead.
Suba---that sounds too good to be true. How does your son actually save all people?
god---He doesn't save all people. He is the savior of all people but he doesn't actually save all people.
Suba---huh?
god---my son died for all the bad things that people do. anyone who believes my son did this will not be hurt for the bad things they did. if anyone likes my son's sacrifice for their bad life, I will give them a free gift of life.
Suba--I hardly know what to say. you mean if i beleive in your son who did a good thing for me that you will give me a life that never ends?
god---no not you. you don't qualify to be saved.
Suba---why don't i qualify? what must i do to qualify?
god---you don't have to do anything to qualify. salvation is by grace. that means it is a free gift.
Suba---then why don't i qualify?
god---i mean you can't qualify for salvation, but you can be disqualified by not qualifying for the qualification that is not required, seeing salvation is free by grace or something like that. it is too late for you.
Suba---why is it too late?
god---because you didn't accpet my son before you died.
Suba---I didn't know of your son before I died.
god---too bad.
Suba---Why?
god---It is not incumbent upon me to save everyone. besides you are my enemy and i hate you. i know that doesn't sound fair but it is justice.
Suba---you said your son taught everyone to love their enemies.
god---next.

Food for thought.

[Shell]

"People do not go to hell for rejecting Jesus. They go to hell for not keeping the 10 Commandments". If that were the case then.....why did Jesus have to die? Why does Jesus say that no man comes to the Father except through the Son?

I was going to say something along those lines. There�s no way humans could ever earn their way to Heaven by following a set of rules. That is why God sent Jesus, to do what we couldn�t and give us what we didn�t deserve, eternal life. It goes deeper than just following a set of rules though, it�s a whole heart attitude. Jesus had a lot to say about attitude. It doesn�t do any good to rigidly follow a set of rules if your heart isn�t right, and that was why Jesus said what He did to the Pharisees. On the other hand, when you love Jesus you want to follow His commandments. But you follow His commandments out of love for Him, not to try to earn your way to Heaven.

So that this doesn't stray too far off topic, I think hell in this case refers to separation from God. Jesus suffered separation from God so we wouldn't have to.

[winterlens]

Luke 23:24 does not say that "you will be with me today in paradise". The grave/tomb is not paradise. Jesus was going to the grave. "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise".

Having done a bit more research on the subject, I'm willing to concede the point (those interested should do a site-search using Google on ibiblio.org; use the query "site:ibiblio.org Luke 23:43"), though the Greek is ambiguous here.

There are other indications, though, couched in some of the Messianic Psalms. See 16.10, 18.5, 23.4a, 30.3, 86.13, 88, 116.3, etc. 16.10 is especially problematic for your position unless you are trying to contend that Sheol is a figure of speech.

While I'm willing to admit that there is a certain amount of poetic description in the Psalms, the experience of Christ is described nearly universally in these terms. Our physical world is not Sheol, which was uncontestably the abode of the dead. When we read of it in relationship to the crucifixion, it speaks in as good a locative sense as we have that Christ was indeed in Sheol.

No one has attempted to say, to the best of my knowledge, that Jesus went to hell in the same sense that any of Satan's children do. It is an unfortunate consequence of English that we associate with the word "hell" what was not associated exclusively with the original language.


There is, however, a distinctly unfortunate problem. If Christ's death was substitutionary, his suffering vicarious--both of which are uncontestable and undeniably asserted in the Scripture--then he must have suffered for sin as I would have if he had not died in my place.

While our impression of hell is one of eternal torment and suffering--and that may not be far off from the truth--the ideas in that phrase are fluid. "Eternal" loses a bit of meaning if there is no passage of time, for example. "Torment," too, is not a cut-and-dried torture; as Shell correctly points out, Hell is separated from God.

I personally am convinced that it will be painful, but I think to put it in a purely physical sense oversimplifies both the concept of hell and what Christ went through at the cross.

[brent]

Luke 23:24 does not say that "you will be with me today in paradise". The grave/tomb is not paradise. Jesus was going to the grave. "I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise".

Having done a bit more research on the subject, I'm willing to concede the point (those interested should do a site-search using Google on ibiblio.org; use the query "site:ibiblio.org Luke 23:43"), though the Greek is ambiguous here.

There are other indications, though, couched in some of the Messianic Psalms. See 16.10, 18.5, 23.4a, 30.3, 86.13, 88, 116.3, etc. 16.10 is especially problematic for your position unless you are trying to contend that Sheol is a figure of speech.

While I'm willing to admit that there is a certain amount of poetic description in the Psalms, the experience of Christ is described nearly universally in these terms. Our physical world is not Sheol, which was uncontestably the abode of the dead. When we read of it in relationship to the crucifixion, it speaks in as good a locative sense as we have that Christ was indeed in Sheol.

No one has attempted to say, to the best of my knowledge, that Jesus went to hell in the same sense that any of Satan's children do. It is an unfortunate consequence of English that we associate with the word "hell" what was not associated exclusively with the original language.


There is, however, a distinctly unfortunate problem. If Christ's death was substitutionary, his suffering vicarious--both of which are uncontestable and undeniably asserted in the Scripture--then he must have suffered for sin as I would have if he had not died in my place.

While our impression of hell is one of eternal torment and suffering--and that may not be far off from the truth--the ideas in that phrase are fluid. "Eternal" loses a bit of meaning if there is no passage of time, for example. "Torment," too, is not a cut-and-dried torture; as Shell correctly points out, Hell is separated from God.

I personally am convinced that it will be painful, but I think to put it in a purely physical sense oversimplifies both the concept of hell and what Christ went through at the cross.

He did suffer. He was rejected by Israel and others multiple times, until they needed help. He came and lived as a man. He was rejected again to His face. He was put to death. Right before, the Spirit was removed from him, leaving him alone. He arose, and people still didn't believe that it was him. He went to sit at the Father's right hand, where Satan comes and points out our failures, while we live like hell. I think that was pain enough without changing scripture to send Him to Hell.

[Chuck]

I agree that Jesus suffered in our place however.......where is the "justice" for those who have NEVER heard of Jesus, e.g. Suba?

Who are "Satan's children"?

[brent]

She will be judged according to her conscience. Romans says that creation is evidence of God. All are born with a desire to "look for Father". Even the most depraved souls in the boonies do this. It is built in to man to serve and please God. The problem is that people try to satisfy that artificially, and/or make someTHING or someONE else God.

We need to quit putting God into a human box. His ways are not our ways. Our ways are not His. So, this fictional character is a moot point.
God has mercy, and wills that all should know Him. God knew before the foundations of the earth who would answer the call of the Holy Spirit and who would not. So maybe he knew that if 1,000 missionaries were to witness to her 10,000 times that she still would not accept. Maybe she would. Maybe since he knew she would, because he knows her heart, that she will be accepted into the kingdom.

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. I know too many people that have cried out to God, not knowing who Jesus Christ was, or the implications of his death, resurrection and return. When they called out to God, he heard their cry. This girl could have cried out to God, not knowing anything about God the Father, Son or Holy Spirit, but cried out because the Holy Spirit was drawing her. The Holy Spirit doesn't lead people elsewhere, so she would be saved.

[winterlens]

I agree that Jesus suffered in our place however.......where is the "justice" for those who have NEVER heard of Jesus, e.g. Suba?

Who are "Satan's children"?

Since this is only tangentially related to Petra and hasn't been moved yet, I'll take this out of public after this post if you're interested.

If you agree that Jesus suffered in our place, then you must be willing to accept that we merited the punishment that he took; we, in fact, were guilty. That means that God is just and executes justice. If you reject that, even for those who never heard, then you reject the very premise of the cross.

When we look at the punishment that he bore, we realize that he actually suffered outside of time (cf Re 13.6--he was slain before the foundation of the world). If his suffering was of any consequence, then we merited punishment outside of time, too. In other word, there is an eternal frame of reference for judgment--both for ours and for Christ's.

This is particularly important because you seem to want to confine justice to a temporal frame of reference. By asking the question, "What about those who never heard," you do two things: first, you presume that somehow your hypothetical native is responsible for going to heaven when this is not true; second, you suggest that she did not know God existed. Romans one clearly states that every single person knows that God exists and is aware that he is a righteous judge.

As to your second question, there are several Scriptural descriptions of Satan's children. They are variously called goats, tare (weeds), reprobate, et c. I think what you meant to ask was, "How does one become Satan's child?" and conversely "How does one become God's child?" because these are at the heart of your first question, too. (Not to mention that we are so accustomed to associating causality with birth that it is second nature to assume it in such a question.)

If you believe that our sonship is conditioned upon belief in Christ, then it is clear that (unless some special exemption exists) Suba is excluded because she has not had opportunity to believe in Christ as her personal Savior, to use the evangelical parlance of the day.

But it is Scripturally clear that birth is a condition of God's will, not man's. It should strike us that, of the five or so times that the new birth is mentioned explicitly in the Bible (Jn 1 and Jn 3, Titus 3, 1Pe 1 covers them all, I think), our belief is never mentioned as the mechanism by which it occurs. We are God's children because he gave birth to us--we are his children because he is our father. Conversely, I expect that Satan's children are his children because he is their father, not by any sort of decision they make.


And that is pretty much all I'm willing to contribute, unless Michael or Micah (or Josh?) wants to move this along to off-topic or you want to PM me.

[Michael]

I haven't moved it to off-topic because it actually is on topic, in that the original discussion was about the content of two Petra songs. But if you feel that the conversation is getting a little too deep for the public forum, of course do move it to PMs or email.