Mystery on Bob's view lyrics on He Came He Saw solved.

[Edward]

What about 1 Peter 5:8 telling us to be alert because our enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour? I do agree that satan can't be everywhere at once. But things like death and disease aren't from God. The enemy knows what his future is, and he wants to destroy as many of God's children as he can before the end. Very often satan's attacks will be through something you're dealing with in your everyday life, and you're faced with trusting God or going your own way. That's how satan operates, and if he can get someone to do their own thing rather than obey God, it's a victory for him. It's a spiritual battle, yes, but evil is a very real thing. You can't tell me someone like Hitler was just having a bad day. Satan's work is done through people and their actions. Yes, we do have a basic sin nature and he plays on that.

You're right about Satan being a fallen angel...We often think of him as ugly with horns and a tail, but he was a beautiful creation of God. And he is quite capable of making sin look very appealing too.

How would Satan devour us? Not by sickness and disease. That is from the curse. In Revelation we read that during the millenial reign, the curse is abollished.

Satan did not create disease, sickness, etc. He is not a literal lion walking around. He deceives amd accuses. That's it. Don't buy into the theology that only good things come from God. Not so. Read about the deseases, plagues, etc that he brought on to Egypt, but also the punishments brought on Israel.

Let's also not forget that we all reap what we sow. So, we bring alot of our cancers, diseases on ourselves by the air we breathe, the food we eat, the chemicals that we expose ourselves to, etc. When sickness occurs, we are far to eager to blame the devil, when we cause it ourselves, even without knowldge.

[Shell]

Good points. But it was still all the result of sin; God doesn't make us sin. Pharoah could have avoided the plagues if he'd let the people go. His heart was hard. And there are people who do what is right and still have bad things happen to them.

[charl]

You can't tell me someone like Hitler was just having a bad day. Satan's work is done through people and their actions. Yes, we do have a basic sin nature and he plays on that.

Good points. But it was still all the result of sin; God doesn't make us sin. Pharoah could have avoided the plagues if he'd let the people go. His heart was hard. And there are people who do what is right and still have bad things happen to them.

The most interesting thing about these situations is their similarities. Hitler was simply another Pharaoh/Antiochus Epiphanes type. Yet God very clearly claims responsiblity for Pharoh, saying to him: I raised you up so that my name might be proclaimed throughout the earth. As many times as it says Pharaoh hardened his heart, it says God hardened it.
while he does not cause what we do, he does ultimately control it by his allowance of it. It is the same way with Satan. He can only do what he is allowed to.

The ultimate reason for suffering is to bring glory to the Name. Yes that is rather nebulous and can be troubling, but it comes back in scripture again and again. I'd suggest studying that, it's fascinating.

BTW Samuel just meant that Saul would die. And the scripture says it was indeed Samuel.

This is fun.

[Enosh]

How would Satan devour us? Not by sickness and disease. That is from the curse. In Revelation we read that during the millenial reign, the curse is abollished.

Satan did not create disease, sickness, etc. He is not a literal lion walking around. He deceives amd accuses. That's it.

The scripture says, "Satan is as a roaring lion. Seeking whom he may devour." As a roaring lion means this is symbolic. Satan makes alot of noise but is powerless against the name of Jesus. If you allow him or other demonic powers to control you they will. Give an inch, take a mile.

One of the problems with the church today is the dulling down of the supernatural. We try to explain everything in a physical sense with our minds. We cannot comprehend the supernatural with our puny physical brains.

It surprises me to see so many "Petheads" who downplay things like spritual warfare and the influence of evil if left unchecked. Especially since much of Petra's music deals with these issues. Listen to This Means War for goodness sake. The whole album deals with these issues. Mine Field is a good song from On Fire is agood one too.

Every problem is not directly caused by Satan, but it scares me when I hear christians talk as if the spirit realm doesn't effect our lives. Good or bad. People have been demon possesed.

How can we just dismiss these things all around us and be comfortable in our big church with our state of the art "Production" and cutesy sunday school classes and don't forget the daycare. We also can't forget retreats and being preached a self help method of religion that makes us feel better about ourselves. What has happened is that we don't talk about things that make us feel uncomfortable, and the supernatural makes us uncomfortable. Good and bad. As long as Jesus remains a warm squishy feeling inside and we can continue feeling good about everything and not challenged enough to put too much thought into it, then wide is the gate that leads to destruction. Narrow is the was that leads to life.

This is the most important reason I have loved Petra over the years... The lyrics. Actually listen to the scriptural insight given in these songs people. Praise songs have become the way to go in today's church and in the average christian music listener. I believe it's because people can sing alot of these types of songs without truely being challenged and then go back to living a sinful life. It's an emotional christianity. This is why you don't hear biblically based songs like Petra and others from the past wrote. It's not a style thing, or an 80's thing with me. It's a sound doctrine thing. Alot of today's music does not carry the torch with the same flame as Petra!

If we do not stay aware of the spiritual attack around us, and do something about it; then we will be devoured into apathy. Take the Bible for what it says. Do something that challenges you in your walk instead of the status quoa. Be a doer of the Word, and not a hearer only. Deceiving you own self.

[Shell]

You said that so much better than I ever could Enosh, thank you for explaining that so well.

[Enosh]

Thank you Shell.

It seems the pastor side of me has come out a few times on the zone in the past couple of days .

[Pethead1]

Ephesians 4:9-10

9Now that He ascended,what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the Earth?
10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens that he might fill all things.

[Edward]

I am not one of the Petheads described that seeks to minimize the spiritual aspects. But too many times the church-at-large over spiritualizes and dramatizes things. Evangelists go around selling demon posession seminars, videos, etc. What a pile of crap. All that it takes is a TRUE man of God, armed with the Word, and powerful prayer. No phsycobabble. No demon is afraid of us. Only God.

To assert that Satan has any power over man, other than looking like and talking like a deceitful counterfit, means that supernatural beings have power to influence us against our knowledge, beyond our control, or in the worst case effecting God's will for us. As in Job, Satan has to work within the boundaries set by God.

We have the real destructive power instilled in ourselves! This is why the ONLY command given to shake Satan was "Resist Satan, and he will flee," by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I think that he should know. If resisting is all that it takes, then that doesn't sound like a war to me. "It is the FLESH that lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, and the two war against each other." "Be Ye transformed by the renewing of Your mind." The war with Satan has already been won. There is no spiritual warfare for us to partake. "The battle belongs to the Lord." His death, burial, resurrection, return and judgement will take care of him. To assume any power over Satan directly places us in equal power to Jesus Christ, since Jesus Christ is what it took to do the job.

Perhaps a study of angels would be in order. Since we know that we have angels around and amongst us, to assume that the devil and his minions can do anything to us without permission, assumes that an angel of God is falling down on the job, or being defeated. God and his army can not, will not, never fail to carry out his work. That said, we should look at events and times of distress as times God has allowed things to happen, to bring us closer to him, through the realization of our dependance on him. There are plenty of people in the bible and in all of our circles of influence, that have suffered for some reason that is beyond our reasoning. Just as Job, the blind man and many others in the bible experienced, it is not punishment, it is for the glory of God.

Life is not about self preservation. It is not about the here and now. This is the preface for eternity. This life determines our rewards for eternity. We should be "busy about our Father's business", winning souls for the Lord.

If we weren't spoiled brats in the USA, it would be easier to see that materialism has numbed the church's effectiveness here. Too many people "wrest" the scripture, thinking that we can have all of the coming rewards and reigning with Christ on earth NOW. They teach the name it and claim it message, which is not happening. That, according to Jesus in Matthew, happens in the new kingdom.

Jesus says in Matthew:
Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
28"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Let it all go, and reap the harvest.

[calicowriter]

Excellent post Enosh! I've been struggling with an issue at the church I attend. As much as I love the services, and the preaching is always spot on and challenging, there seems to be too much emphasis on the Sunday school and daycare and coffee shop. Although I have never heard anything preached that was unbiblical, I can honestly say I've never heard anything preached about spiritual warfare. The small groups seem to revolve around social activities or coping studies. What really worries me is that they just voted on buying a huge chunk of adjoining property and plan on going into considerable debt to expand. I think a church can get too big.

I guess what this means is I need to look for a church that is a better fit for me, but oh, I hate the prospect.

[Shell]

Those are good points Edward...Who I suspect very strongly is Brent...This sounds a lot like him. Sure, the war is won, but we'll have to deal with the enemy until Jesus returns. Spiritual warfare consists of anything that takes our eyes off God, and that is satan's goal. Like Enosh said, he wants us to be apathetic. Apathy and discouragement are two of satan's favorite tools, and if you don't let God help you with that, it will ruin your relationship with God. We need to be watchful.

I've heard two of the biggest mistakes when dealing with satan are to be overly interested in him or to not believe he exists.

[BeReady]

In the New Testament, the KJV translates three Greek words as "Hell": Gehenna--the abode of the unrighteous dead; Tartaro--the abode of the fallen angels; and Hades--the abode of all of the dead (before Christ's resurrection). Anytime the Bible says Jesus descended into "hell" it is always Hades, never Gehenna or Tartaro. My personal opinion is that when Jesus descended into Hades he visited the righteous dead and then led them into heaven after his ascension. I also believe the Apostle's creed is referring to Hades when it states Jesus descended into hell.

[darthpethead]

The Devil is only afraid of us when we realize and take a stand for who we are in Christ. The Devil aint afraid us going to church, reading the Word, speaking in tongues even dancing and praising, He is very fearful when we realize who we are in Christ that is why he fights us when we try to conform to the image of Christ because when we do that we have the power over him not in ourselves but through Christ cause if we tried to fight the devil through our carnal mind then he would eat our lunch lol!

[Enosh]

My personal opinion is that when Jesus descended into Hades he visited the righteous dead and then led them into heaven after his ascension. I also believe the Apostle's creed is referring to Hades when it states Jesus descended into hell.

That's it!

Edward, whom I also believe to be Brent...

I totally agree with your comments about preachers selling kits and such to "overcome" the devil. Like many things it has gotten out of control. We have no authority except through Christ. We are in a war daily and there is no discharge the Bible tells us. We get up and must put on the armour of God to withstand the fiery darts of the devil. Why would we be instructed to do this if there is no war, and there is no attack other than daily lessons we must learn? We must be prepared spiritually if we want to rid off the attacks of the enemy.

Let me put it this way. Jesus has given us all power to overcome the devil, but we must put that power to use. It is not automatic. If I give you a gun, that is power. If a thief comes after you and you keep looking at the gun expecting it to work on your behalf, you will be overtaken even though I have given you power to defend yourself. The power we have in Christ can not just be looked at, we must put the name above all names into action. We have been given authority. Therefore we must USE that authority.

[PetFCtr]

Jesus set what captives free

[PetFCtr]

Jesus gave up his spirit to the Father on the cross. He did not go to a physical hell..He accomplished everything on the cross. What he did on the cross made it possible for us to achieve salvation.