Mystery on Bob's view lyrics on He Came He Saw solved.

[Enosh]

Here is a common mistake that I think many christians miss. The whole progress of death and ressurection are esential to our salvation. It is not good enough for Jesus to just die on the cross. He had to rise from the grave to complete our salvation. It is the victory over death that sets Jesus apart and shows that he is Christ.

This is the difference between Jesus and any other claiming they are Christ. Only Jesus died and rose again. This is the key of evidence showing who Christ is. He is the son of God.

My personal opinion is that when Jesus descended into Hades he visited the righteous dead and then led them into heaven after his ascension. I also believe the Apostle's creed is referring to Hades when it states Jesus descended into hell.

None of the saints that had died before Christ had salvation. Christ showed that he was the Messiah by setting those free who had gone before. He lead captivity captive, and set the captives free. The cross was the beginning. Without the ressurection Jesus is just another prophet or crazy person claiming to be God.

Please explain how Christ's dying on the cross defeated Satan by itself. When Christ died even the father turned His back. Jesus gives up the ghost and dies. Everyone is weeping and sorrowful. How does death of itself defeat Satan? The what happens next is what defeats Satan. Without ressurection there is no defeated Satan; Just a dead Jesus. He didn't accend to the Father when he died. He told his diciples that he had not yet accended. So where do you think he went?

None can enter heaven except through salvation. Even the patriarchs cannot get in through their works. They were born into sin under the curse the same as we were. They had to receive salvation. God is not a respector of persons. He doesn't let some in and shut others out. He is just and fair and leaves no room for loopholes.


BTW The Bible does not say that Satan is in hell. the bible says Satan is roaming the earth to and fro.

In the song creed it says the Jesus descended and set the captives free. Is descended metaphoric for he died and made the way for us to be saved. Because if it means he went to where satan is (hell) thats not truth..Jesus did not go to hell..He defeated satan on the cross. and rose defeating death.

In The song He came He Saw He Conguered. It says He conquered death and hell...Jesus didnt go to hell...He conquered death by rising, he defeated hell(satan) on the cross or satan..

[/quote]

[charl]

As much as I love the services, and the preaching is always spot on and challenging,

Most of us are not this fortunate. Be careful in any search for a new church that they are doing the same.


You all are splitting hairs...I can't think of many christians who 'miss the point' of the resurrection though (and if they do are they really christians).

Think of the eastern view of incarnation. Christ's glorification ultimately was part of his incarnation, so the fathers were always talking about that (and I'm sure you all know by now that I lurve Athanasius on this). They did not minimize the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension in favour of the incarnation because to them they were part of the same thing. The ascension was the last step in finishing the work of the incarnation. They saw it was God coming to us that was important-to work our salvation with his 'own right arm'.

However, we do understand that the most signifigant part of this was the exchange of the cross. This is why we say, as Jesus himself did, it is finished. Had he not rose, he would not have proved his deity and one could say, as they did, that he did not have the right to forgive sins. His resurrection and ascension proved that he did indeed do the work he claimed to on the cross.

[Enosh]

Charl,

You would be surprised by the "Church" people and doctrines I have encountered in my lifetime. I'm glad that you have not shared this experience in your ministry to others.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people are confused on biblical matters. That's why I have always subscribed to, "Keep it simple and plain." Don't go over people's heads with a bunch of philosophy or try to prove how smart I am. Just give the basic gospel and explain things so people can understand.
[/quote]

[charl]

I take it you're not a Lutheran, Enosh.

I probably should clarify that I don't thik that everyone who goes to church and says they love Jesus is necessarily a Christian, and lack of understanding about the atonement would be one which would make me at least scratch my head (and yes I certainly know they exist!). A fun trick question to ask christians is whether Mary is the mother of God to find out how much they've thought about doctrine.
But my point in the last post was just that often when christians emphasize the cross, it does not necessarily mean they have a poor view of the resurrection. (like Lutherans!!)

[Edward]

Here is a common mistake that I think many christians miss. The whole progress of death and ressurection are esential to our salvation. It is not good enough for Jesus to just die on the cross. He had to rise from the grave to complete our salvation. It is the victory over death that sets Jesus apart and shows that he is Christ.

This is the difference between Jesus and any other claiming they are Christ. Only Jesus died and rose again. This is the key of evidence showing who Christ is. He is the son of God.

None of the saints that had died before Christ had salvation.

[/quote]

This is false. Don't buy into dispensationalism. I used to. It is not totally correct. God did NOT EVER say in scripture that the law = redemption. NOT ONE PLACE. The law = works. Salvation is not by works.

The Bible says that salvation is in Christ. Old Testament saints were saved just as we are today. The Bible says that we were redeemed in Christ before the foundation of the world. Moses' law and works did not save anyone.

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The purpose of the law was to show the world that they were guilty before God and how it is impossible to keep it. Even if you could, it still would not justify a single person. The Old Testament saints were not saved by keeping the law nor were they saved by the sacrifices they performed. Sacrifices were a reminder of sin and a visual of the true sacrifice that was to come in Jesus Christ.

So, if one WAS able to keep the law, how would they be saved? Just as we are. They had to have faith in the coming Messiah. We have faith in the Messiah that was revealed, that will be coming again.

Abraham was saved the same way that we are. Romans 4:3-6:
For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Abraham had faith in the coming sacrifice: Hebrews 10:1-11
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
Then I said, 'Behold, I have come -- In the volume of the book it is written of Me -- To do Your will, O God.' "
Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

So, scripture shows that both the Old and New Testament saints obtain salvation through the finished, free sacrifice of Jesus Christ�s death, burial and resurrection.

[PetFCtr]

Here is a common mistake that I think many christians miss. The whole progress of death and ressurection are esential to our salvation. It is not good enough for Jesus to just die on the cross. He had to rise from the grave to complete our salvation. It is the victory over death that sets Jesus apart and shows that he is Christ.

This is the difference between Jesus and any other claiming they are Christ. Only Jesus died and rose again. This is the key of evidence showing who Christ is. He is the son of God.

None of the saints that had died before Christ had salvation.

This is false. Don't buy into dispensationalism. I used to. It is not totally correct. God did NOT EVER say in scripture that the law = redemption. NOT ONE PLACE. The law = works. Salvation is not by works.

The Bible says that salvation is in Christ. Old Testament saints were saved just as we are today. The Bible says that we were redeemed in Christ before the foundation of the world. Moses' law and works did not save anyone.

Romans 3:19-20 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The purpose of the law was to show the world that they were guilty before God and how it is impossible to keep it. Even if you could, it still would not justify a single person. The Old Testament saints were not saved by keeping the law nor were they saved by the sacrifices they performed. Sacrifices were a reminder of sin and a visual of the true sacrifice that was to come in Jesus Christ.

So, if one WAS able to keep the law, how would they be saved? Just as we are. They had to have faith in the coming Messiah. We have faith in the Messiah that was revealed, that will be coming again.

Abraham was saved the same way that we are. Romans 4:3-6:
For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

Abraham had faith in the coming sacrifice: Hebrews 10:1-11
For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
Then I said, 'Behold, I have come -- In the volume of the book it is written of Me -- To do Your will, O God.' "
Previously saying, "Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them" (which are offered according to the law),
then He said, "Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

So, scripture shows that both the Old and New Testament saints obtain salvation through the finished, free sacrifice of Jesus Christ�s death, burial and resurrection.[/quote]

Ok so again. The part in the song Creed where it says Jesus descended..What is Bob saying..If it means he went to physical hell then thats unblical..Its a metaphorical for something else than I'd like to know..

[Shell]

I can only guess, but my guess would be it's a metaphor for Jesus being victorious over death and the grave.

Bob wrote the song based on the Apostle's Creed, and that was actually around for a long time before Bob ever wrote the song. So if it is unbiblical, it didn't originate with the song. We could debate the point forever. The important thing is that Jesus rose isn't it?

[PetFCtr]

I can only guess, but my guess would be it's a metaphor for Jesus being victorious over death and the grave.

The important thing is that Jesus rose isn't it?

Absolutely 100% agreed.

Shell pretty much sumed it up..Direct and to the point, just the way I like it. With no fillers

[PetFCtr]

No where in the Gospels does it say anything about him going to hell then rising to heaven..

He gave up his spirit to the father, died on the cross, was put into a tomb, on the third day rose from the dead met with his disciples then ascended into heaven.

[Enosh]

I take it you're not a Lutheran, Enosh.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Funny thing is that I have many Lutheran friends and we agree on so many points they tell me I should just become one. I also fit in well with my methodist friends. I was raised in a non-denomination/pentecostal/assembly of God type home. Now I'm just a Christian.

I will say this and leave this topic to rest. I see the lyrics written from the traditional view of Jesus decending into hell and defeating Satan. No other part of the song is written metaphorically so why would this part be? Also I think there is some other evidence Bob has written in other songs as well.

He came, he saw: He conquered death and hell
Graverobber: There is one who has been to both heaven and hell.
This means War!
"So much for Jesus you said in jest, then you got a visit from an unwelcome guest."
Creed: He decended and set the captives free. Where did he decend then? He accended into heaven but was born on earth. He didn't decend to earth.

We don't have to believe the same thing. Isn't it great that we both love Jesus? I just find this conversation interesting because I have never heard anyone before now claim that Jesus did not decend into hell. (Whatever translation you want to use for it) and defeat Satan. I have worked with just about every major denomination over the last 16 years and I guess it just hasn't come up. But every friend I've talked to from I would say 6 different denominations believes this way. Praise God for diversity.

[Enosh]

Take a look at this:

Luke 16:19-29
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

As I said before, I don't believe Jesus was punished or suffered. Abraham's bosom may be a better description for where I believe Jesus ended up after death.

[PetFCtr]

Enosh Bro.

We can agree to disagree. No Where in the gospels does it say he went to hell to defeat satan. He defeated satan on the cross period. The Bible doesnt say he went to hell for three days to defeat satan.

If you insist that Jesus did go to hell. What do you base that on?

Love ya bro

In Christ

Rich

[Chuck]

Luke 16:19-29 was, is and always will be a parable which, according to Webster, is a moral story.

When Jesus died He didn't "go anywhere". He was dead. Period. Hence the resurrection which, according to Webster means "to bring back to life". It is not a wonder that the "world" cannot follow what the "church" is saying. The "church" cannot even figure out what it believes! This is a crucial issue that the church cannot conclusively provide an answer too.

BTW I have been a faithful member of a large denomination for 20 years so I am not pointing fingers that do not point back.

[PetFCtr]

Luke 16:19-29 was, is and always will be a parable which, according to Webster, is a moral story.

Jesus never stated that the story of Lazarus was a parable.

When Jesus died He didn't "go anywhere". He was dead. Period. Hence the resurrection which, according to Webster means "to bring back to life". It is not a wonder that the "world" cannot follow what the "church" is saying. The "church" cannot even figure out what it believes! This is a crucial issue that the church cannot conclusively provide an answer too.

Your righton here.

BTW I have been a faithful member of a large denomination for 20 years so I am not pointing fingers that do not point back.

Rich.

[Enosh]

That's cool man.

It did turn more into a debate. My original intention really was that I had seen an earlier post regarding what Bob meant in Creed and He came He saw. It just seems that's where he's coming from based on other song lyrics. As long as I'm not going to hell, it's all good.