Skillet

[Fobers71]

One word .. LOUD.

They were at Acquire the Fire this weekend.

It was the first time my wife has ever heard me say "This is too loud"

Not really my cup of tea but they seem to have a solid ministry.

[Petra Fan Canada]

I'm glad to hear that their ministry is solid.

I bought their previos album, Alien Youth, and was impressed by their lyrics and their music.

However, I recenly saw a NY Times article (available on Skillet's site) that implies they're part of a cross over movement that wants to get away from ministry. That said, John Cooper appeared uncomfortable with that notion.

I pray they will continue to focus on Christ centerd lyrics.

[executioner]

They are one of the few that actually are ministry first, so it would surprise that they would go the route of the crossover.

[greenchili]

I could never understand the notion of non-ministry oriented music from Christian musicians. There are plenty of secular artists out there singing about everyday life or who have vaguely spiritual lyrics.

Are they embarassed by it? Are the listeners embarassed to play it publically? Is being a Christian "not cool"? Is there not enough money in it?

Just never made any sense to me. People need to get their priorities straight. Just take on look at Peter in the bible.

[executioner]

There was a time that most CCM artist and record companies made little money if any, so I feel that would be the reasoning for it then, but now I feel it's more the labels pushing it like that because there are only a few Christian labels left. Also a lack of faith on the artists part is a big reason.

One artist that is going against the trend right now is STRYPER. They have really changed from how they were in the 80's. Mike actually has been preaching the Gospel at all their concerts since they have been reunited. There are some venues around that will say for an artist not to talk about their faith during the show, but Stryper is being like Petra now and refusing to play in those venues. I know Petra never got to play in Reunion Arena here in Dallas during their heyday because of the beer ad on the back of the tickets. Reunion had a contract with Coors that every show that was booked at Reunion had to have the Coors Ad on the back of the ticket stub. Petra refused to play there many times. When they would come to Dallas they would always play at Six Flags.

[greenchili]

Unlike Amy Grant eh?

Wasn't one of her concerts sponsored by a beer company?

[Jonathan]

Are they embarassed by it? Are the listeners embarassed to play it publically? Is being a Christian "not cool"? Is there not enough money in it?

With lyrics that aren't explicity Christian, you can reach a non-Sunday School audience. "Jesus Loves Me" isn't going to fly in pubs and bars. People (artists, musicians, etc.) are called differently. Jesus spoke in parables so that the people he was trying to reach would better understand. He didn't wander around quoting the Torah constantly.

Its more embarassing and easier, frankly, I think to copy right out of the Psalms or 1 Corinthians and pander to the flock than to show a non-believer the light. Playing it publicly has to be about shining the light, rather than saying, "Look at me, I'm a Christian." It's the musical equivalent of jersey-popping ballers. We know, you think your're sweet, now play the game.

Being Christian is not "cool" by today's standards. We'll never be accepted and emulated by the mainstream, instead, as God said, we would face persecution constantly.

I won't question someone's faith based on the songs they write. What's wrong with being imaginative and telling stories? There are people in need of both types. Actions speak a lot louder than words.

[Shell]

Someone has to pay for the concerts; I can understand why they would need sponsors. There's an oppotunity there for people to hear something they wouldn't hear otherwise, and the Stryper guys never tried to pretend they didn't want to make money.

There are plenty of people who wouldn't dream of drinking or smoking who won't be going to heaven.

[greenchili]

I never meant to say that writing non-christian explicit lyrics is necessarily wrong. But what I am saying is, what's the point? Like I said there are plenty of secular artists writing about those type of things. So why one more? That is the point.

Sure Jesus spoke in parables, but he was also VERY CLEAR about who he was and what he was here for. That is the difference I do not see with a fair amount of artists. There seems to be this "thing" among bands that declaring themselves as Christian is "uncool". If one is writing songs that do not clearly point to the bible (say generic spiritual songs), then how are they furthering the kingdom? So to speak?

So they get people to think about spiritual things? That does not mean anything. The matrix made me thing about spiritual things, but that does not mean it points to the bible.

So that is kinda my point. Anyways it's just my personal opinion. I honestly think that people are scared to be "open" about christianity. Instead they'd rather have music with veiled lyrics that they can play around their friends to gain acceptance. Just an opinion of mine. I understand the why, it's just the supposed "logic" behind the why that makes no sense to me.

Now I am fully aware that the music industry is pretty screwy about the pressure they put on musicians. On the one side you had the christians pressuring groups to be less cryptic on the other side you had the higher ups pressuring them to be less spritual. That's what happened to Kansas. The higher execs told them to tone it down.

I've seen several artists some of which who are outspoken about their faith and those who are not and you can see a BIG difference between their lyrics and lifestyle. So seeing some of that also affects my thoughts on the situation.

On a side note I take a different approach in regards to witness for regular people. Because I do believe that people react differently. Some people need the fire and brimstone style talk, and others prefer to have more intellectual philisophical conversations. What may work for one person will not work for another.

But with music I feel it's different simply because by music an artist has a greater means to reach people and to be the same as everyone else out there lyrically does not seem to make alot of sense to me. I suppose if they are very open publically about their faith, but not so with lyrics it isn't so bad. But I see very few artists like that, alot seem more concerned about public image and getting the dough.

Its more embarassing and easier, frankly, I think to copy right out of the Psalms or 1 Corinthians and pander to the flock than to show a non-believer the light. Playing it publicly has to be about shining the light, rather than saying, "Look at me, I'm a Christian."

Just quoting this to put my statement a little more in context. I don't really think you could take a song like "Dust In The Wind" that was very clearly ripped out of the bible and call it "embarassing". It's a very insightful song, but it still is pretty clear where it came from.

Also a person hearing a song based on a bible verse may just think "hey, you know the bible really does have something interesting to say".

When you say embarassing, are you referring to as in "lack of originality"? Cause there should be no reason to be "embarassed" about being a christian. The prime reason that I mentioned Peter from the bible in my previous post. He was very embarrassed about being a follower of Christ. In fact he even denied it.

As a christian I don't need a "christian artist" with vaguely spiritual lyrics to "impress" my friends. I could listen to a secular artist with perfectly acceptable truthful lyrics and still show my "coolness". The "Christian Music" would just reflect the more biblically specific side of my personality. See what I mean?

[Jonathan]

For me, the appeal of someone like Tozer, Tolkien or Lewis is that its not the Bible.

I can read the Bible if I want the Bible. But when an artist or author puts another angle or offers an object lesson on a spiritual concept, a part of my brain engages that normally wouldn't if I was just reading the Word. It makes me more critical of what I read and think about in the Bible. Could I get by with just the Bible? No question. But because Christian bookstores exist, its pretty clear we're bored with our Bibles or need someone else to tell us what they say. Or maybe it's authors expressing their faith through writing these books and musicians who worship with their craft.

I used "embarassed" in answering a question you posed. Like you said, originality was the direction I was going. I never said be ashamed of your faith. I won't try to defend people who fit that category of "veiling" the word of God with the intent of hiding it or out of fear of reprisal from an audience or a record label. God deals with us all. At the same time, I have no right to rip on anyone who writes chords above passages of scripture, or who feels called to scream their praise and allegiance to Jesus from the mountaintops (Sometimes I don't feel like doing that.).

I don't see any point to musicians recording anything that isn't intentionally honoring God. You don't see any point to Christians recording music that isn't explicitly Christian. Where do you draw the line? When is something Christian enough, and when does it slide into vagueness? I believe worship is a personal expression to God that involves anything we've been gifted with or are talented with. That's my reason for not trying not to be cynical about music by some artists that were complete tools in person.

That's why we won't see eye to eye on the 77s, the Choir, etc. Taken as a whole, its pretty clear what they're about. But a casual listener won't glean anything other than "Life is bleak." That's why Petra is so valuable. There is instant recognition of what they are about. I love listening to other bands, but when I need a "heartwash," I always turn on Petra, and it's usually "No Doubt" or "More Power To Ya" that gets me straightened out and centered.

[greenchili]

Well I'm not really saying I have anything against groups like the 77's, or even a group like King's X (whom I happen to like, despite the fact how screwed up their lives are). For example you could take someone like Amy Grant who is obviously billed as a Christian artist, but her lifestyle does not necessarily reflect that faith.

I'm just stating that it never made sense to my why a christian artist would not want to be identified as such, or why people find christian music so "embarassing". This is not a popularity contest I'm tallking about here, this is eternity with a loving savior. I just honestly think some christians find "explicitly christian" music embarassing to play around other people not because of lack of originality. Hence again my reference to Peter in the bible. Who at one time did not want to be associated with Christ but people somehow managed to pick him out anyways because of his speech and mannerism's.

Again there are PLENTY of secular artists out there talking about "the human condition". If I want that I KNOW where to look.

That is why it does not make any sense to me. It doesn't mean I dislike christian artists who chose to go that route. It means I do not understand the logic behind it. Are they really embarassed about lack of originality? Well I just personally do not think this is the case.

Listen to music from the 50's-60's and you will see what I mean. Alot of lack of originality in regards to the lyrics yet I never see anyone complaining about that lack of "intellectual" content. To me christian based lyrics are original in that everyone else is not doing it, and we need more people doing it. You just not gonna get that from a secular artist, because they have not experienced the cleansing of the holy spirit.

Anyways it's really no big deal to me. I'm just expressing some thoughts on the issue and in the end the wheat will be seperated from the chaffe.
All will be good.

[executioner]

I think it is a business now and it is nothing about ministry. Bold Christian lyrics like Petra had done for 33 years is NOT even acceptable in CCM, They are shot down as being weak and simple minded. I'm ashamed of most of the CCM artists now days. When I think of the current state of CCM, I'm always reminded of 2 things in the Bible. 1. Jesus throwing the merchants out of the temple 2. Jesus talking about being lukewarm and I believe both of these stories directly apply to CCM and its current state. I really don't want to be a part of it anymore.

[greenchili]

OK I was thinking maybe I should back track and define a little more specifically what I'm saying.

Obviously God does not call everyone to preach, but he does to some extent want us to express our faith in him so that others may believe. I certainly do not expect a christian artist to take an evangelical approach to their music or lyrics. At the very least it'd be nice if they used other means of expressing those beliefs.

On the other hand I also feel there are plenty of artists out there talking about the human condition. If I want that kind of poetry I'll go listen to like someone like Simon & Garfunkel or the eagles (as an example). There are plenty of artists with that kind of stuff.

What bothers me is the logic (not the action). People who claim to be christians who somehow wanna seperate themselves from the very thing that redeemed them. If listening to music that is lyrically clearly christian around other people is embarassing, then there is something wrong. Obviously that is between them and God.

Then you have artists, who are christians, that wanna disassociate themselves as much as possible from christianity. If they chose to do so, that's fine by me. If I happen to like their music or lyrics I'll probably even listen to them.

[Petra Fan Canada]

I'm with Chili on this one.

I don't have an issue with an artist, who is a Christian, playing more secular style music. They should live a life that glorifies God, but they may not be called to be a ministry.

What's missing in CCM (IMHO) are groups that put the ministry first. Ideally, CCM is a genre, like gospel, that is 100% about the Christian walk. It should mention Christ, God, Messiah, whatever, within the context of the song. I guess what I miss are bands that want to evangelize as much, or even more, than entertain.

CCM has been hijacked. For me now, its about going out and finding independents, or only supporting bands (say Casting Crowns) that the music is the message.

Oh Petra, please say it ain't so!!

[Jonathan]

From personal experience, I have several friends who would listen to artists like Petra and not give them a shot. These are the people who undergo spiritual awakenings after movies like "Chronicles of Narnia" instead of the "Passion of the Christ."

They are people who think they are too smart for the Bible. People who want to see it lived out, instead of preached at them. These are friends to whom I am witnessing through my actions and through music presenting real Spiritual truth and at the same time offering a worldview that the Christian life isn't always happy smiley praisey. Its smashmouth, its a busted lip and a chipped tooth sometimes, but its never fatal, never hopeless. They see a person who is broken, and who fails, but who is forgiven, and has hope, so the allegories are clear. They aren't Christians, so they don't have their faith neatly compartmentalized. They are searching, not entrenched. They are on the other side of our rose-colored stained glass windows. They know the redemption story, and I want to relate that story to real life in a palatable way to them. I've never played anything big time, so my interactions are chatting with the audience afterwards. It is there that I testify.

That is my logic for writing these types of songs. I see a field of souls (not dollar signs) out there I can water. But I could just let all the secular industrial CCM people reach them, though, I guess. Would Third Day come and play a coffee house here in town and then stick around to actually talk to people who need it? Because my job would be a lot easier, and I'm certain everyone in town would love them. Jars of Clay, I'd invite them to play in my friend's basement, but they demand new furniture wherever they go (For one night), so I couldn't afford them. I probably wouldn't have enough beer for Delirious, so they wouldn't play in the alley outside Mancino's.