CMCentral's TOP TEN for 2003 - Petra in twice

[MJanke]

Well, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about this anymore. I've said my piece.

I just cannot fathom how you can say something like this "There's nothing wrong with listening to them - but bands like Petra who are sold out to Jesus right down to the very music they record, in my opinion, will get the larger reward in Heaven."

To me, that is something only God can determine. He sees the whole of their lives. But so be it.

[MJanke]

And if they reach one more kid for Christ, who picked up the CD because it DIDN'T have that label/stigma attached to it, are you going to tell me it wasn't worth it to discard a label that is, ultimately, meaningless?

That's just it, I don't consider calling yourself a Christian to be a meaningless label. If this is your belief then maybe you need to think long and hard about just what it means to call yourself a Christian.

If you look back you'll see that I was saying the "Christian Band" label was meaningless. I said nothing about calling yourself a Christian. We should not equate the two because they are in no way equal or of the same meaning or importance.

[LexingtonPethead]

One last point for me as well:

I just cannot fathom how you can say something like this "There's nothing wrong with listening to them - but bands like Petra who are sold out to Jesus right down to the very music they record, in my opinion, will get the larger reward in Heaven."

To me, that is something only God can determine. He sees the whole of their lives. But so be it.

And I cannot comprehend how you can make that above statement. Just because I have an opinion, to you, I'm sitting on the judgement seat doling out rewards. I clearly indicated that was "my opinion". Obviously, God is the final judge.

For some reason, you seem pretty defensive and quick to jump on someone just because they have an opinion. Just because someone has a different point of view or a different opinion doesn't mean they're playing God. I didn't say that these guys weren't Christians or that their love for God was any less than Petra's. If I had, THEN I would have been judging them, and that WOULD have been playing God... which I didn't do.

The part that scares me is that you seem to want to consider everything we do as ministry. Your definition of ministry seems to be wide open to almost everything. I think that's a dangerous path to tread.

I simply stated that they (Lifehouse) have a different approach to how they write their songs, and to me, bands like Petra who make an effort to minister through their music are true "Christian bands" and are more highly regarded for doing so, in my opinion of course.

[Mountain Man]

If you look back you'll see that I was saying the "Christian Band" label was meaningless.

And I really don't think it is. When someone calls themselves a Christian whatever, they are making a bold proclimation of their faith. A "Christian artist" is an artist who puts Christ first; a "Christian filmmaker" is a filmmaker who puts Christ first; a "Christian band" is a band who puts Christ first. See what I'm getting at? There are just certain expectations that come with the Christian name. You call them stigmas, but if you're living your life right, you will inevitably be stigmatized for being a Christian.

On the whole, I'm just a little suspicious of Christian bands that downplay their Christianity because I've seen with my own eyes what it leads to. When you have a band like Third Day or Petra, when they're on stage, your focus is turned towards God. You're not worshipping the band or just enjoying the music but actually being led in worship of God. That's what being a Christian band is all about.

Now when I've seen "Christians in a band" perform (and I'm purposely keeping this vague even though I do have specific examples in mind), my attention is inevitably focused on them, on their music, and not on Christ. This tells me the spirit with which they approach their "ministry" is not right, that they're not being ministers of the gospel.

I don't think some appreciate the fact that when you try to divorce yourself from your faith in your public life, it effects a philosophical change in how you carry yourself with visible consequences.

[Kaiser]

Mountain Man,

Amen, Amen, Amen!!!!!

[LexingtonPethead]

Mountain Man, you really hit the bulls eye with that one. Thank you for explaining that so well.

[separateunion]

You see, I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that Lifehouse and all the others can be used by God in other ways... either through their local churches or by nurturing relationships with lost kids. I just think it's a shame that they don't do it through the music they record, because they could be so much more effective and reach so many more people if they did.

That's your opinion. Has Petra ever had a platinum album? Nope. I'm almost positive that P.O.D. has. I guarantee P.O.D. and Lifehouse have played much bigger concerts than Petra has ever played. So, comparatively, P.O.D. and Lifehouse have been more effective in seeling albums and filling up concert halls. However, it is impossible for anyone to say if one band has touched more people's lives than another (unless someone is keeping stats, which I highly doubt).

Who are you to say whether or not God is using Lifehousw and P.O.D.'s music to touch lives? That's a bit unfair and judgemental, IMO.

Here's something no one else has brought up. I believe that many Christians are seeing how corrupt CCM is becoming, and don't want any part of it. I, for one, wouldn't want to have my band associated with CCM due to these circumstances.

Also, it has always seemed to me that CCM has always seemed to stifle musical talent. I can listen to the mainstream music I own and the Christian music that I own and honestly say that just from the way the albums sound, I'd rather listen to the mainstream stuff because it is more musically satisfying.

I remember hearing once that when Jason Wade, the vocalist/guitarist from Lifehouse, made his band's first demo, he handed it out at church. One lady handed it back to him, telling him it wasn't Christian enough for her. Think he was gung ho about looking for a Christian label to sign him after that little incident?

[Petrapraise]

seperateunion,
Petra filled large stadiums in the 80's during the "Beat The System" tour. Its not really fair to compare the sales and concerts of the early to mid 80's to the post 2000's. Back in the 80's, "Christian Rock" music was still being considered taboo. Our church youth group "discussed" whether rock music could be "Christian". That's a non-issue these days. PETRA has been around for 30 years with a clear, consistent message. I dont think its unfair to say that they touched more people in the world over those years. I'm not saying other bands haven't reached people, but alot of the new bands have a watered down type message. That could be because its the only way to get some of todays kids to listen to music with a positive message. I pray it works to bring people in without getting the new artists sucked the other way.

[LexingtonPethead]

Hey Sep, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you're just trying to get me riled up all over again.

I'm almost positive that P.O.D. has. I guarantee P.O.D. and Lifehouse have played much bigger concerts than Petra has ever played. So, comparatively, P.O.D. and Lifehouse have been more effective in seeling albums and filling up concert halls. However, it is impossible for anyone to say if one band has touched more people's lives than another (unless someone is keeping stats, which I highly doubt).

Come on, Sep, think about that for a second. What good is it to fill up a concert hall if the concert is all about the band and not about God? How does that touch anyone's life? Read what Mountain Man said in a previous post. He said it best.

So if Petra only sells half as many seats and half as many CDs as Lifehouse or POD, but in the process brings their fans into a worship experience, who do you think has touched more lives? You see, the fact that Lifehouse and POD are more commercially successful than Petra doesn't mean squat.

Who are you to say whether or not God is using Lifehousw and P.O.D.'s music to touch lives? That's a bit unfair and judgemental, IMO.

Well, I don't see how a CD chock full of generic pronouns is going to minister to anybody... but okay... I will concede that there may be someone out there who is convinced that God is the subject instead of a girl and get something out of it.

And you're right, that's my opinion. You and I both know there are scores of liberals out there right now trying to de-Christianize American culture, and when I see "Christians in a band" dancing around the faith issue in their music, it's aggravating to me. It makes me wonder if they are afraid of "failing" commercially if they acknowledge Christ in their music. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but some people will think so (I am not judging here!!) And as you have pointed out, bands who don't rock the boat sell more tickets and CDs.

And let me be clear about something else. I DO think what Lifehouse and their peers are doing is important. Maybe God's using them to introduce people to good, clean music. While this may be an important first step for a lot of people, I don't consider this "ministry" (in general). God could use someone to push me out of the way of an oncoming car, but that doesn't mean that person "ministered" to me. It simply means that God used that person for a specific purpose. In that sense, I think God is using "Christians in a band" maybe to lay the groundwork for ministry to happen in other non-related ways.

[MJanke]

The part that scares me is that you seem to want to consider everything we do as ministry. Your definition of ministry seems to be wide open to almost everything. I think that's a dangerous path to tread.

That's because it is.

Worship is a lifestyle, not just the music we sing in church. Ministry is also a life-encompassing thing. I am just as much of a minister as a pastor or the guys in Petra, as is any Christian teacher, plummer, mechanic or actor. Our lives are our ministries and our relationships are our mission field, whether we do it in the public spotlight or not.

[MJanke]

So if Petra only sells half as many seats and half as many CDs as Lifehouse or POD, but in the process brings their fans into a worship experience, who do you think has touched more lives? You see, the fact that Lifehouse and POD are more commercially successful than Petra doesn't mean squat.

At the same time, if Lifehouse or POD make albums that reflect their Christian belief but are not blatantly "Christian" as defined here, but lead multitudes of kids to Christ in the process, the fact that their albums are not blatantly "Christian" as defined here doesn't mean squat.

And the testimonies of their fans and listeners prove that is exactly what is happening.

[LexingtonPethead]

Well, I knew there had to be something we could agree on!

Worship is a lifestyle, not just the music we sing in church. Ministry is also a life-encompassing thing. I am just as much of a minister as a pastor or the guys in Petra, as is any Christian teacher, plummer, mechanic or actor. Our lives are our ministries and our relationships are our mission field, whether we do it in the public spotlight or not.

I agree we can use our stations in life to be witnesses for Christ and to be used for His eternal purpose.

Hey, I noticed you're new to the zone, so I would like to welcome you! We tend to be a temperamental bunch at times, each one with an opinion, and of course everybody thinks theirs is the right one.

Hope there are no hard feelings!

[separateunion]

Come on, Sep, think about that for a second. What good is it to fill up a concert hall if the concert is all about the band and not about God? How does that touch anyone's life? Read what Mountain Man said in a previous post. He said it best.

So if Petra only sells half as many seats and half as many CDs as Lifehouse or POD, but in the process brings their fans into a worship experience, who do you think has touched more lives? You see, the fact that Lifehouse and POD are more commercially successful than Petra doesn't mean squat.

Here's the point you missed: there is no way to know if one band has ministered to people more than another. That argument shouldn't even be brought up. I never said that BECAUSE Lifehouse and P.O.D. are commercially more successful than Petra that that translates into them ministering more. Don't misinterpret what I say.

If your prefer Petra's ministry, that is fine, but don't belittle other bands who may not see things the same way as Petra does. You do not know how God is using them, and to say that what they are doing is any less than what is Petra is completely off.

I do agree that "Christians in a band" versus a "Christian Band" is a tough area. if there is a band that fits the first category, they have to be careful not to hide their light under a bushel, while at the same time not making necessarily Christian music. I think these bands come under more scrutiny than any other, and I don't have a problem with that.

However, there are bands and artists that call themselves Christian that I would rather have playing in the mainstream market. There are so many songs on the Christian radio stations now that sound just like any other song on a mainstream radio station. I think these artist are more guilty of trying to hide their faith than those who have already said, "hey, we just want to make music."

One last thing. I have a problem with that part about about Christian bands bringing people into a worship experience. Some of the things I've observed from fans of Christian bands really bothers me. Many of them do not go to be brought into a worship experience. Some go because they idoloize a certain artist, some go just to hear the music, and I've even seen people go because they think a certain memeber of a band is "hot." Now, these are not just occurences here and there, I've seen this happen in very large numbers.

True, there are some people who are saved at these concerts, but how long does that last? I would waager a majority of the people who accept the altar call, do so because they are on an emotional high, and do not follow through with their faith. I have seen way to many people measure their faith by how emotional they get during a worship service for my taste.

[MJanke]

Hey, I noticed you're new to the zone, so I would like to welcome you! We tend to be a temperamental bunch at times, each one with an opinion, and of course everybody thinks theirs is the right one.

Actually, I'm not new. But when the board moved I never re-registered until now. Thanks for the welcome though.

[LexingtonPethead]

At the same time, if Lifehouse or POD make albums that reflect their Christian belief but are not blatantly "Christian" as defined here, but lead multitudes of kids to Christ in the process, the fact that their albums are not blatantly "Christian" as defined here doesn't mean squat.

And the testimonies of their fans and listeners prove that is exactly what is happening.

MJanke, that's a very big IF and a very tall order. Are you being hypothetical here?... it doesn't seem logical to me. The bands you are referring to are not outwardly Christian in their music, so why would they be in concert? Kids who go to these concerts aren't going to lead themselves to Christ!

I want to agree with you on this, so can you refer to something that can substantiate what you're saying? If you're saying it just for the sake of making a snippy comeback, it doesn't mean squat.