2 Guys tour dates

[separateunion]

If grassroots worked, indie's would be selling out large venues. It is a limited attempt at too few people.

Yet many indie artists that are lucky to sell 50k to 100k units per album somehow make enough to survive. I don't think Five Iron Frenzy every pushed more than 50k units on any of their albums and they were able to stick around 8.5 years and leave on their terms, meaning, the band didn't fall apart because they were broke.

[brent]

Indies CAN and DO survive. There are some very successful ones. The majority however do NOT sell over 20k units. The majority sell much less. The ones that do move lots of product are generally special cases, not competing in the main genres. They are hyper niche genred. They also have networked and toured with signed artists, benefiting from the draw and label/management/marketing services of another band, or were once signed and are now indie. I am aware of a limited number of exeptions to the rule.

It is much easier for some artist like Prince to go indie and still make money, because he/she has a "green tree" that is making him/her money. The green tree is the catalog of music, made while he/she was signed, with the labels money.

This whole issue again is about concerts and marketing, and what the market will allow. The facts are that indies are indie because of two things. Money and influence. Sometimes those things go hand in hand. Labels are loan sharks with all of the connetions. They are all losing their control. It is a good time to be indie. But soon there will be chaos for a while, until a unified indie organization emerges, which makes them a label, establishes a heirarchy, and they essencially become what what everyone has hated.

Again, there are no "from scratch" indie Christian artists selling arenas ON THEIR OWN. Period. There will not be. It is impossible unless the indie has loads of cash and the same type of people the label would employ.

If someone could figure out how to draw a couple of thousand people to a church or theater, with little to no money, and repeat this in multiple markets, that person would be a millionare and Petra would still exist in the form we would liketo see it.

[separateunion]

Again, there are no "from scratch" indie Christian artists selling arenas ON THEIR OWN. Period. There will not be. It is impossible unless the indie has loads of cash and the same type of people the label would employ.

How many actual arena outfits exist anymore? Even in the mainstream market, it is a very small percentage. The only true arena artist Christian music ever had was Carman and that's because his concerts were free. I'm really not sure why you're trying to argue on the basis of selling out arenas since probably less than 1% of all musicians/bands across the spectrum do this.

[sue d.]

Sue, what I mean is that grassroots stuff is not going to work if you want to bring in more than 500 people. The average return is 10% max for a succesfulk advertising campaign.

Hmmm.... that's a pretty sad return. We had more than 500 people at our NYEve show. The population of Sheboygan Falls is only 6700 people... of course we advertised all over outside the immediate area too.

Advertise where the Christian people listen, secular radio, secular internet, secular retailers.

I hear what you're saying, but if Christians are listening to secular radio - then they wouldn't even KNOW a Christian song, much less the artist who performed it. So why would they come to a concert? At least with Christian radio you're hitting your target audience dead on.

by offering free shows and incorporating them into the church services.

Like what II Guys do on Sunday mornings? I can't see that as a replacement for a real concert.

The average church in the USA is 200 people or less.

Where did you find that figure? It seems way off base. If you're defining "church" as meeting in a basement of a school, or in someone's home - ok, maybe. But I find it hard to believe that the average church has a membership of less than 200. That few people could hardly pay a mortgage on a building, much less the heat bill.

Code: Select all

But soon there will be chaos for a while, until a unified indie organization emerges, which makes them a label, establishes a heirarchy, and they essencially become what what everyone has hated. 

I think there already is one in the works: Indie Heaven, and Indie Community. Indie Heaven is getting quite a bit of recognition in the biz...

[crossways]

I hear what you're saying, but if Christians are listening to secular radio - then they wouldn't even KNOW a Christian song, much less the artist who performed it. So why would they come to a concert? At least with Christian radio you're hitting your target audience dead on.

Not neccesarily. I listen to a lot of Christian rock (duh) but my local station caters to the "soccer mom" (no offense if you are a Petra lovin' soccer mom! ) and I just don't care for ANY of their music...well not much of it.

I once mentioned to them at a function that they should play more Petra....they replied "why would we do that we WANT people to listen."

Where did you find that figure? It seems way off base. If you're defining "church" as meeting in a basement of a school, or in someone's home - ok, maybe. But I find it hard to believe that the average church has a membership of less than 200. That few people could hardly pay a mortgage on a building, much less the heat bill.

<sigh>

I live in the Bible belt....East TN.

There ARE plenty of churches that are 400 - 1000+ but sadly many churches hover in that 150 - 250 range. You'd be suprised. A lot of them are churches that in the 70's boomed with members, but time, conflict, disinterest...whatever..... have left them at low numbers.

In my hometown of Kingsport, we (at about 220) are considered midsize. The church across the street (about 1500) is considered MEGA. I would say that average around here are -100.

Financialy we stay afloat from the MANY contributions of our deceased. We have several 6 figure trusts. We employ a fulltime pastor, secretary, part-time music and youth. Part time custodian, and some hourly nursery workers.

All salaries except the secretary all well below averages.

[petranite]

When I used the figure of $5,000 i'm using a round number that includes, (airfare roundtrip, local transportation, hotel, food, advertising, venue, artist honorarium, production, and rider fullfilment). Lets do some math. If 2guys wanted $1,000 honorarium how much more would I need to make the show happen. (Before I get into this I want to make it known I am not picking on 2guys this scenario is true for hundreds of artists. And again I would not begrudge 2guys getting $50,000 if they could.)

$1,000 Honorarium
$500 Roundtrip Airfare For 2
$200 Hotel Accomodations (2 rooms)
$100 Ground Transportation (Driver, Rental Car, Gas, etc.)
$120 Food ($20 per meal per person 20x2x3)
$100 Rider requests (bottled water, towels, snacks, etc)
$200 Venue Fee (Low For Nice Place)
$500 Advertising (Flyers, Posters, Tickets, Postcards)
$500 Production (Lighting, Sound Guy, sound System, etc)
TOTAL = $3200.00

I'm at $3,200 and all of those costs are reasonable and dirt cheap. Obviously some costs like food could be less. And this is with only a $1,000 honorarium.

Now as far as booking somebody with 2guys credentials I look at it this way. If their credentials (which nobody can argue they are great) had the ability to bring people in by the hundreds then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.Their credentials mean nothing to the general public. Here's some questions.

1. Do they have a record contract? NO
2. Do they have any current radio hits on secular or christian radio? NO
3. Are they a household name (2guys)? NO
4. Do they have any major sponsorship driving tour promotion? NO
5. Do they have a new record out? NO
6. Do they have a current record in the top 100? NO
7. Do they have a current video out on TV or even Youtube? NO

I liken it to the Sony Playstation3. It is by far the suppiorer game console however nobody was buying it. Why? Because it was overpriced. what did Sony do? they lowered the price and now they are selling far better then ever. did the product change? NO. The price just came down to what the market demanded. Now if I'm going to pay $3,200 I would rather bring somebody in who can at least answer yes to a couple of those questions.

Let's try another scenario. If Event "A" brings in 500 people. Event "B" 1000 people and event "C" 200 people and all three events cost the same price, have the same quality of ministry but you could only do one of them which one would you do? The logical choice would be event "B". It doesn't mean events "A" & "C" aren't effective because they clearly are. It just means event "B" has a better potential. Again this is what a lot of promoters are looking at when it comes to booking an event. 99% of all concerts I book are not because I like the artists personally. I book roughly 30 bands a year at a rate of 1-2 concerts a month and A lot of factors go into booking a show. I know full well that when I do a "christian" show I will usually lose some money. I responded on this subject because Sue said she usually sees a dead end with promoters after the initial inquiry and they find out the asking price of 2guys. I feel like most of the time we respond on this message board as fans of 2guys and Petra and anything or anybody that responds with an outside obejctive view is challanged like Brent has been. As a promoter that has inquired about 2guys and dropped it after hearing the asking price I felt it was too simple to just say it's the promoters fault that 2guys don't have shows booked. i blieve the reason is more complicated than just promoters afraid to "work hard" for the show and do not want to risk anything. I wish I could continue but time will not allow. Not to over simplify but here is as I see it again.

Problem: Promoters don't book because of the asking price.

Answer A: Lower the price
Answer B: Keep the price the same (Still have same problem)
Answer C: Expect promoters to lose a couple thousand bucks

Again my perspective as a FAN is different than my perspective as a PROMOTER.

Tim

[brent]

Again, there are no "from scratch" indie Christian artists selling arenas ON THEIR OWN. Period. There will not be. It is impossible unless the indie has loads of cash and the same type of people the label would employ.

How many actual arena outfits exist anymore? Even in the mainstream market, it is a very small percentage. The only true arena artist Christian music ever had was Carman and that's because his concerts were free. I'm really not sure why you're trying to argue on the basis of selling out arenas since probably less than 1% of all musicians/bands across the spectrum do this.

No, there were many more than Carman. He came in late in the arena game. Back in the day, concerts were packaged with multiple acts in the ten major markets and they sold out. You mght have Sonshince Concerts with Joe English, The Imperials, David Meece and Archers or Cruise Family. Stuff like that. Gaither sells out arenas still. DeGarmo and Key, Amy Grant, Petra and couple of others were arena bands.

Forget arenas then. Use large theaters then, seating up to 2,000.

Arean artists do exist. Large theater/mega church artists exist. There is no reason why Petra could not have done what Def Leppard, Journey and other bands have done. they could coheadline and sell out large halls, festivals, etc. WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE AND MONEY. The Stones are not too old. Bon Jovi isn't too old. NONE of these bands sell out shows without advertising.

Wayne killed Petra, but others dug the grave before him.

[brent]

Sue, what I mean is that grassroots stuff is not going to work if you want to bring in more than 500 people. The average return is 10% max for a succesfulk advertising campaign.

Hmmm.... that's a pretty sad return. We had more than 500 people at our NYEve show. The population of Sheboygan Falls is only 6700 people... of course we advertised all over outside the immediate area too.

Advertise where the Christian people listen, secular radio, secular internet, secular retailers.

I hear what you're saying, but if Christians are listening to secular radio - then they wouldn't even KNOW a Christian song, much less the artist who performed it. So why would they come to a concert? At least with Christian radio you're hitting your target audience dead on.

by offering free shows and incorporating them into the church services.

Like what II Guys do on Sunday mornings? I can't see that as a replacement for a real concert.

The average church in the USA is 200 people or less.

Where did you find that figure? It seems way off base. If you're defining "church" as meeting in a basement of a school, or in someone's home - ok, maybe. But I find it hard to believe that the average church has a membership of less than 200. That few people could hardly pay a mortgage on a building, much less the heat bill.

Code: Select all

But soon there will be chaos for a while, until a unified indie organization emerges, which makes them a label, establishes a heirarchy, and they essencially become what what everyone has hated. 

I think there already is one in the works: Indie Heaven, and Indie Community. Indie Heaven is getting quite a bit of recognition in the biz...

Sue, you can go to the major denominations offices and get these numbers to verify. You can also get George Barna's materials/numbers. They are well respected in church ministry circles. The SBC is the largest denomination in the USA. The average church size is 200 people for the SBC. Assemblies of God are about the same. There are obviously variances. But you must think nation-wide. Mega churches are not the norm in every market.

Again, because Christian music intended for radio is performed at church either in their services, or at a concert there. Then you have the internet/iTunes thing that sells the most music in the world. Then you have file sharing and bootlegging. I am not saying Christian radio isn't listened to at all, just that it is a very, VERY small niche audience/market, and it is shrinking.

Nashville is crapping. They do NOT know what to do. They do not know what the next step is. They are operating an old business model and things are falling apart. Therefore you will see no changes for a while.

indie Heaven is neat and all, but nobody, meaning the people that pay money for music, knows about it. Again, iTunes is it. Period. For now. indie Heaven is operated by some good guys. But they will tell ya that they are not the answer to the masses right now. All they do is host music and files. YOU have to do the marketing. You have to book shows. You do all of the work and tell them to go to Indie Heaven. They don't do any more than what people can do for themselves for little to no money. They don't even pop up in Google for the top musical genre searches.

[petranite]

Again I have to agree with brent's points here. Personally I no longer advertise on "christian" radio for shows. When I do it is usually a free comunity calender type of deal. And here's the real shocker the average church size in America according to Christianity Today/Outreach is 124 as of 2006.

I personally don't think church size is a huge issue unless your trying to promote a tough sell show like 2guys. If your church runs 50 or 5000 it doesn't matter if your pushing a show that can draw. However smaller churches have less of an opportunity to lose money than a mega church. If I was a mega church I probably would not book 2guys because I want the most return people wise for an event. So if 2guys cannot book into a lot of large churches (which there are not a ton of them to begin with) then their other choice is to market to medium and smaller churches which dictates lower honorariums.

Managers and bands do not want to hear this truth. I'm reminded of the 80's metal band Bride. They are in the same boat as 2guys. Still marketing themselves on past accolades to a general audience that doesn't care. They no longer play shows because nobody will pay what they want or what they feel they need. Is that the promoters fault? I don't think so. that's just the way it is in today's Christian market. The "christian Nashville" scene is all but dead. It's sad because as a fan I miss these great bands because I respect and appreciate their accomplishments and music. I will say if 2guys were reasonable priced based on todays market (not resonably priced compared to Beyond Belief Tour days) I would book them in a heartbeart. I would probably still lose money on the show but it would be more in line with what I could reasonably lose per show.

Brent I don't know what your background is but you bring a lot of solid thinking and business sense to the table.

Tim

[BeReady]

I pastor a rural Southern Baptist church in central illinois. There are aprroximately 25 Southern Baptist Churches in our county. Of those 25, I'd say only about 10 of them have more that 100 people atttend a Morning Worship service, and only about 3 of them have more than 200. Though Brent is correct, 200 is the SBC national average.

[74CAPethead]

petranite wrote:

�Problem: Promoters don't book because of the asking price.
Answer A: Lower the price
Answer B: Keep the price the same (Still have same problem)
Answer C: Expect promoters to lose a couple thousand bucks�

What about D? Donations (Pethead Sponsored Concerts)

Problem solved!

Tim said he would have II Guys in a heartbeat if he could afford it! We can help solve his problem!

As Sue mentioned, because of the donations of a handful of Petheads, II Guys were able to come to CA! Now we can help send them to Florida! The churches wouldn�t have to lose money, they wouldn�t have to WORK HARD to raise the money and II Guys would get what they deserve!

Petrafan1 said, �i thought about booking them but i would also come out on the negative end�, we can help send them to Oklahoma too!

On May 15, 2007 bleedinghero (Dan) from the Philippines, posted that he has been a Petra fan for 15 years and wrote: �i have never, EVER seen them live in concert. and i probably never will. do you realize how disappointing that is for me? petra will never come to the philippines - heck, II Guys will probably never drop by either. my most favorite band in the world and i've never seen them up close and personal. you guys in the US have it good. petra may not be around anymore but at least you have bob and john (plus an upcoming reunion concert i hear). as usual, i will simply imagine what it's like to see and hear these guys live. but that's as far as it goes for me. count your blessings guys. if you don't have Petra, at least you have II Guys.�

When you read Dan�s post doesn�t it make you wish you could help make a dream come true for him? Can you imagine how big his heart would be smiling being able to see II Guys for the very first time? Plus it would be a great blessing for all the other people that would be ministered to!

Brent wrote:

�There is no reason why Petra could not have done what Def Leppard, Journey and other bands have done. they could coheadline and sell out large halls, festivals, etc. WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE AND MONEY. The Stones are not too old. Bon Jovi isn't too old. NONE of these bands sell out shows without advertising.

Wayne killed Petra, but others dug the grave before him.�

I agree with Brent! I think the RIGHT PEOPLE are the PETHEADS, but it still takes MONEY!

Just out of curiosity�how many Petheads would be willing to donate $10.00 per month to sponsor PETRA (the band)?

If Petra came out with a new CD every month would you buy it? If your answer is yes then you could afford to pitch in $10.00 per month to help sponsor II Guys! If you could afford it and you�re not contributing then it�s obvious that you just don�t want to help, and if that�s the real reason�that�s sad.

People do not fail, they give up trying!

[brent]

Donations are not the answer are they? We know Petra, Bob and John. That's the problem. There are too few of us that know them compared to those that are able and prequalified by being church attenders, fans of the genre, etc.

The problem for some smart guy/gal to ponder is how to re-invent the band, put them in places where Christians are in seculare invironments, and get them to turn loose of their cash to sustain them.

[carol d.]

I just threw in a few bucks to send John and Bob to wherever. Thanks for the kick in the pants, petranfan1!! (Been meaning to contribute, but never got around to it. )

Now my two cents on this thread:
IMHO, Petra is Bob and John and really always has been. They are the ones the Lord is leading to minister and I think their ministry is better than ever. The past is the past and as much as we miss what was, we have to move forward. Obviously, things are changing for John with his new album and all. Who knows what the Lord has in store for Bob in the future....maybe he and John will record a rock album together. Now wouldn't that be cool?

[sue d.]

When I used the figure of $5,000 i'm using a round number that includes, (airfare roundtrip, local transportation, hotel, food, advertising, venue, artist honorarium, production, and rider fullfilment).

You must live in a more expensive area than I do.

"$100 Ground Transportation (Driver, Rental Car, Gas, etc.) "

Pay someone to pick up from the airport? why? there are plenty of fans who would do this for nothing - not to mention most of the time the promoter himself picks up John & Bob.

"$120 Food ($20 per meal per person 20x2x3) "

They don't eat THAT much... ! Especially not for breakfast nor lunch.

"$100 Rider requests (bottled water, towels, snacks, etc) "

Definetely not that expensive for two people.

Minor points, but points nonetheless.

The "christian Nashville" scene is all but dead.

Well, you better tell Nashville, because they don't act like it. I went to GMA for the first time this past year.... surely looked alive & well on the outside. I KNOW that in the big picture it's running scared, as Brent said. I understand this... but what's the solution?

I will say if 2guys were reasonable priced based on todays market (not resonably priced compared to Beyond Belief Tour days) I would book them in a heartbeart

OK - what do you call 'reasonably priced?' Give me a figure. Petrafan1 - you too. Tell me what YOU consider reasonable.

II Guys already did adjust their pricing from what it was last year because I did find that of those who were interested in booking - the dollars are what kept them away. Even NOW, with lower costs, I'm still getting that same response.

Honestly, there comes a point where an artist has to say "if I'm not worth $$ (fill in the blank with a dollar amount) then it's just not worth the effort."

I'm NOT saying John & Bob are at that point - NO. But I am saying that an artist's time is worth something. Yes, the market drives the honorarium, like any other 'product,' but it also has to be worth the manufacturer's (read: artist's) while to make that product.

I'm speaking now strictly in a dollars & cents vein - NOT relating this to ministry and God's calling

Wayne killed Petra, but others dug the grave before him.�

OUCH...... ouch.....but I would not disagree.

[jejac77]

I find this thread almost laughable. I would love to hear some of you "dicker" when buying a new car or a new TV! "Oh,we don't need 6 seats - I will only use it to drive to work."
Give me a break. You know what - if you really want it - you muster up the faith - or even better --- ask God to strengthen your faith - so that you can take a step of faith - and do it. If it is really a faith walk - then He will provide the means and your obedience will bless many. (Genesis 12)
Believe me - it could not be easier to book John and Bob, and what a blessing to spend some time with them. Trust me - if you book them - you will WANT to be the one to pick them up at the airport, drive them to the hotle, the venue, and so forth. Talk about once in a lifetime!
I have often said - "Gee - wouldn't it be great to have Petra, then II Guys at my church." Well, 2007 was quite a year - we had then at St. Bart's for a concert in January at the University of Buffalo (over 600 came for the first Christian concert on campus in over 20 years) and then we were blessed to have the II Guys at 2 of our 3 Sunday services. WOW. I thought, well that will never happen again!
In August Bob and John came back and blessed us with a Friday night concert (it started as a concert and an awesome time of Worship happened - that all of us are still talking about). And now parishioners are asking "when?" "When are they coming back?" Well, I don't know - but I am sure that our II Friends from Petra will return and bless us again - because we took the "step of faith" in the first place.
I guess what I am saying is --- stop talking, and nickel and diming - and start thinking of "How can I do this - how can we do this - and ask Jesus to bless those plans." Then, get out of the way - put your doubts and fears away - and watch what the Holy Spirit can and will do - to you and for you and your church. Then, you will be able to write the testimony about what happened - instead of "I wish I could, I wish I could."
Forgive me for getting "preachy" but I am passionate about this issue - and I get frustrated with such negative thinking. If you don't act - you'll remain where you are - simply talking.
God bless Sue, John, and Bob for their efforts and ministry. I pray that Jesus will empower more of us to come along side them and enable them to bless even more people - in Jesus Name.
Thanks for the chance to addd my two cents.
Fr. John Commins