2 Guys tour dates

[crossways]

I think the question is not so much about II guys as it is about churches and the shift in their ministries and today's economic climate.

Used to be that people came to events like this. Their was no affiliation with the church(es) bringing in the bands as much as it was an outreach to a community/city. It was effective. Bands used to have a much more ministry minded approach. They would share testimony and even meet with students after the shows, not for autographs but for prayer, and ministry.

Petra was like this, and I guess II guys very well may be as well.

I remember the first concert I went to where they didn't share or have prayer after with folks who came forward. It was weird....but things change.

Today's concerts, are just that....concerts geared and focus primarily on entertainment. Clean entertainment and you might get bits and pieces of the Gospel or some positive messages in the songs.

Now I am generalizing I know...but this is the mindset of what people expect to get, because that is what is mostly happening. I know that Bob and John are different.

So a church looks at their budget for the year. And a even $1500 to bring in someone (which is on the low side I know) seems like it could be used more effectively in other places.

Example. My church spent $800 on our trunk or treat. We had a good local band, games, food, kiddy blowup toys, etc. We gave away door prizes. We had over 500 people fill out contact cards. There is absolutley NO christian band that could have given us the same return in potential contact with the lost/unchurched. And that is tending to be where the focus is for churches....rightly so. Edification is important...but at what expense?

Now concerts just aren't being well attended...at least not around here. And Christian concerts are going to be attended by christians by and large.

What motivation is there for a church to hold a concert at that expense?

So that leaves it to promoters...who need to make money.

DecemberRadio was just through here ... maybe 1000 people most of whom attend the mega church that hosted the event.

Those numbers just aren't going motivate many to take the risk.

Finally you need to factor in the current state of the economy.

Gas and groceries are going through the roof. In my personal family budget, I cut entertainment. And I think a lot of churches are doing the same.

I love Bob and John, please know that. When I was a military brat moving every three years they were my "friends". It was their music that blasted my ears for the endless car trips. Their music that I came home to after a hard day. And I support them every chance I can. I buy their stuff, EVERYTHING. I pay full-price...happily! Sometimes I buy two. I spend as much as I can afford on their merch. I go to their concerts...I take people. On three seperate occasions I took students: to Alive 2000! from TN, to Wise, Va with Gaurdian and Tammy Trent (60miles away) and when they were on tour with Newsboys. I have driven many miles to go support them. But what else should I be expected to do?

I think one has to be reasonable and realistic. I don't think the petheads are to blame, nor are the churches. I just think we are dealing with the reality of a lot of factors in todays world.

[gman]

let me respond to the previous post before I put up the long post I've been working on. Wasn't it Bob who wrote, "woulda, coulda, shoulda, done this and that. Don't want to live life with another regret...woulda, coulda, should done this and that, but here and now is waiting"?

[gman]

Back in 2006, Stryper was scheduled to play both Creation Festivals, East and West. East was ultimately a total rainout, but prior to that announcement, the band backed out of both shows. From what I understand it wasn't a case of "we're Stryper and we deserve to get paid more". It sounded like they were willing to do the shows for break even, as a way to promote their new album and try to get new fans. However, if they had done the shows, when all was said and done, they would have had to put out a good bit of money from their own pockets to get to the events. What they would have gotten paid would not have covered their expenses. Coming from different parts of the country, and having created a life post Stryper heyday to provide for their families, they just couldn't afford to take time away to do the shows if it meant having to pay a good bit to get there and not getting fully reimbursed. In that case, having a sponsor would have helped.
My take on II Guyz is this: Well, it took me so long to write this, in between work, that I forgot where I was going.
I guess I was going to say that Bob and John have created a life post Petra to help them provide for their families, pay the bills, give to their local church etc. Doing shows may take away from that, so I'm okay with them getting a little profit from the shows. Certainly, if they can supplement their income through the shows, they can do more of them. If they were willing to do some shows and only break even, the number of shows they would be able to do would be far less. Obviously they can't do shows and pay out of pocket repeatedly.
Some have expressed that they can't afford to put on a II guys show, or that they think it wouldn't be a good idea financially to ask their local church to sponsor the show and pay for it. What's the solution? I don't see one that is an absolute fix. There's a lot of work that can be done by someone looking to put on a show. Perhaps lcoal sponsorship is an option. National sponsorship is only going to happen for, as was suggested earlier, the flavor of the month, or a proven act that can fill larger venues. I like the idea of trying to pair up with other acts. I thought it was a shame that Inpop didn't didn't get Petra out there on some big tours or into a lot of festivals.
I like the sponsorship fund, although I don't see the contributions of Petheads alone as being enough to sustain a long term active concert schedule. A dozen or so other sponsors, each willing to donate enough to cover one show would go a long way.
Someone mentioned Bon Jovi earlier. I think, with the secular market, you are dealing with a much larger fan base to draw from. I think Bon Jovi is a more unique case. You have a New Jersey Icon, maybe even an American icon; a band that I think history will suggest was one of the greatest things to come from New Jersey. They can book a week of shows at Giants stadium and sell out every one. One of the things that might be happening there is that you get a lot people who attend because experiencing a sold out Bon Jovi shot at Giants stadium with tens of thousands of fans is one of those things you have to do once if at all possible, especially if you are from NJ, and even if you don't really listen to their music.
I tried to convince a friend that he had to go see Petra on the J&H tour. He's a big fan of christian music, and has never seen Petra live. I tried to tell him that experiencing Petra live is one of those things you have to do while you still can. It didn't work. I guess that shows that the Christian fan base isn't large enough to draw enough fans to generate enough buzz to keep Petra going.
On a different note, let me ask this. Can someone shed some insight as to the level of interest from Petra/II Guyz when it comes to touring? If Petra was willing to go all in and tour full time, it's a shame that they couldn't get the backing for it. It's another thing for us to speculate on what could have been done, or can be done, if Petra/II Guys was/is not even interested in gigging on a full time basis.

[crossways]

A dozen or so other sponsors, each willing to donate enough to cover one show would go a long way.

What's the point? Especially when you say this.

I tried to convince a friend that he had to go see Petra on the J&H tour. He's a big fan of christian music, and has never seen Petra live. I tried to tell him that experiencing Petra live is one of those things you have to do while you still can. It didn't work. I guess that shows that the Christian fan base isn't large enough to draw enough fans to generate enough buzz to keep Petra going.

I think that Bob and John can both find ways of making a living.

Why would they want to do shows that there was so little interest in that it had to be subsidized by people who wouldn't be in attendance.

I would rather send $100 straight to Bob and John than to try and send money to fund a concert. At least the money would go to the guys I wanted to support. Then they can decide what to do with it.

I think the real work needs to be done in getting out the word about II Guys and what they are doing. That might cost some serious $$, and I would be in favor of sending $$ for that. Maybe a DVD of Bob and John talking about their new ministry and what they can can do. Snipets of their show. Along with a "how-to" on having a show.

[gman]

I should have made a clearer distinction between Petra and II Guyz. If Petra can't draw enough people on their own to fill decent sized venues, a national sponsor is not going to do a tour with them. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to for some independent Joe with tons of money to do it either. Having a fund set aside to do single shows would make sense only if you could guarantee a decent draw. Just having funds set aside for multiple Petra shows, if you couldn't guarantee a decent draw for any of them, wouldn't make sense.
II Guyz is a little bit different. They want to get out there and minister, and promote their music. One way to do that is through shows like they have already done. If you have a show at a decent sized church that can guarantee a decent audience, with room for die hard fans, that is a great way to get their ministry out there and introduce their to those who would be most likely to purchase it. That's where the fund comes in. Many people have expressed interest but have said it's not financially feasable for them or their church. Stepping out on faith doesn't always mean getting into something without the financial backing in place. Sometimes it can, but I believe it takes some serious prayer to reach that conclusion. Many have stepped out in that way and have been taken to the cleaners. Sometimes stepping out on faith may mean that you believe it's the right thing to do, you have the finances in place via a sponsor, the concert fund, or some other means, and you commit to it and trust God to work out the remaining details. It might happen, or he might choose to close the door. If one wants to have II Guyz do a concert for 20 people on a sunday night, and they can pay for it, or their church is willing to pay for it, they can do it. That's really not the best way for Bob and John to promote themselves, and I wouldn't expect the fund to be used in that way. It takes due diligence and serious prayer all the way around.
The point about having a dozen or so other sponsors was directed toward II Guyz. If Bob and John are desiring to do concerts on regular basis, I don't see where $5 or $10 donations from Petheads, be they sporadic or on a regular basis, would be enough to support that number of concerts long term. If you can come up with non-petheads from wherever that are willing to donate enough to cover the cost of one show, you are looking at being able to do at least a dozen more shows.

GMan

[crossways]

If you have a show at a decent sized church that can guarantee a decent audience, with room for die hard fans, that is a great way to get their ministry out there and introduce their to those who would be most likely to purchase it.

I don't mean to argue or fight with you, but this where I just don't get it.

If it's a decent sized church and they can garuntee a draw, then how come they couldn't afford to bring the event themselves?

See that's where I question whether a church CAN do something or WANTS to do something.

My church COULD bring in II Guys, definately. I would personally LOVE it. But there is NO way that there is enough interest in my church to do it. I hate it. I play Petra songs in church every chance I get. I drop hints to the pastor. But the reality is another thing.

[brent]

Guys. The artist has to play what people want. The people have to know where to find the artist, be reminded daily, have a place to buy the artist, be reminded daily.
Have you ever seen McDonalds stop advertising? Nope. They HYPER advertise. If McDonalds backs off, their sales drop. There are McDonalds EVERYWHERE. The same applies to bands. The artists need people that work for exposure constantly, work for bookings constantly. This is what IIGuys and Petra needs. Until these guys get that, it doesn't matter what God wants, because that stuff doesn't just happen, falling out of the sky. If it did, demand for Petra would have never dropped "because God wants Petra".

IF God even wants specific bands (don't get misunderstand me here), then he is laying down on the job. We all know that he isn't. We all know that he is Almighty. So, we must change our thinking about Christian bands and ministry and money, because what is being written here is contrary to the last 50+ years of recorded Christian music history and economics. It might also be a possibility that people mature and grow out of genres. It might be a possibility and proven fact that the older one gets, the less one listens to music. It might be a slight possibility that WE are holding on to the past and the past should be the past. That's a tough one for me personally.

The artists are on planet earth, living and operating under the earth's economy, all subject to the changing whims of culture. I don't think that this is a matter of faith. This is a matter of marketing. There are lots of great, spirit filled, fruitful artists, and they are broker than broke. There are lots of doofus "christian" artists that are riding the top of the wave, cause they have the right machine supporting them.

[gman]

Brent wrote:

It might be a slight possibility that WE are holding on to the past and the past should be the past. That's a tough one for me personally.

I raised a similar question in an email to someone. If it costs about $5K to bring in II Guyz, is it reasonable for them to expect they can get gigs; that people will think it wise to put out that kind of cost, or do they decide to take an occasional gig when they can get it, but hang it up otherwise and move on with life? Again, another instance where serious prayer comes into play.

Crossways wrote:

Quote:
If you have a show at a decent sized church that can guarantee a decent audience, with room for die hard fans, that is a great way to get their ministry out there and introduce their to those who would be most likely to purchase it.


I don't mean to argue or fight with you, but this where I just don't get it.

If it's a decent sized church and they can garuntee a draw, then how come they couldn't afford to bring the event themselves?

Well, to some degree it may be a case of what is the ministry of the month? Larger churches may tend to bring in what is currently popular, what people are asking for or consuming. Smaller churches may find that some other cheaper ministry might meet their needs just as well. I can think of a group of 2 brothers that do a sort of inspirational/gospel concert on the church/christian retreat circuit. This goes way back, but at one point they were asking for $1000 per gig. That is far less than $5K, and they provided their own equipment and transportation.

I realize II Guyz is a different animal. You're talking about two very successful Christian musicians making a transition to a type of P&W ministry, and they don't provide all of the things that other groups might provide for the requested fee. The burden is put on the church/promoter to come up with equipment, provide transportation, etc. That's not a bad thing, that's just the way it is. How do you make that work? It's tough situation. It's a catch 22 where they don't boost their ministry if they don't get out and do shows, but because their current ministry is not well known, or not the ministry of the month, the reception from churches that could afford to bring them in might be a cold one.

GMan

[separateunion]

Until these guys get that, it doesn't matter what God wants, because that stuff doesn't just happen, falling out of the sky.

Sorry, but I have an issue with this statement. Please don't imply that earthly things are bigger than God can handle because they aren't. He is sovereign in all things.

[petranite]

Ok Sue, First off I DO live in a place that is more expensive than middle america. It's florida for crying out loud. Lets take your "points" into account and re-adjust my figure then. I get the ground transportation cost amount because there is a little thing in Florida called toll roads. I would make 2 round trips to the airport to pick J&B up. That costs $25.00 (actual amount from where the venue is). Next I have to spend gas round trip. Not cheap if you live in Florida by the way. Let's say i use 1 tank of gas only. That's $40. Ok scrap compensation for driver and we'll leave transportation at $65.00. Next is food. unless J&B want to eat at McDonalds or stick with the cheapest thing on the menu at a restraunt then ya $20.00 bucks is fair and pretty routine. But for the sake of argument let's drop it down to an average of $12.50 per meal per person. That's $75.00. Ok Rider requests. Water ($7.50) towels ($10.00) Snacks(20.00) Etc. (25.00) Total $62.50

Total Adjusted figure for 2guys show w/ $1,000 honorarium. $3,102.50
Now can we get off the nickle & dime stuff.

Now I have defended every bit of my viewpoint from a financial business standpoint. Again I hope I have shed some light onto the promoter standpoint. Sue do you think a $1,000 honorarium at this point is unfair. At that rate if J&B did 50 shows a year they would have supplamental income of $25,000 each. That's if they did every show @ the minimum. i understand if J&B would feel they are worth more or that it's not worth it and believe me I am 100% OK if they feel that way. But if that's the case then it's not just a promoters fault. it's a combination of things. You can't fault a promoter for opting to go with an alternative ministry/artist/band/or whatever we want to call it.

I will say this I am open to having 2guys and I believe other prmoters and churches would be too if costs come in line. And I will say this to those that want to spirtualize this. I step out in FAITH every single month with shows. If God spoke to me and said have J&B then i would trust that He would provide but God hasn't and you know what that's ok too. I don't just sit and wait for God to tell me to do things. That's why i continue to step out in Faith and have artists every month for our community and church. And I will say this I expect no artist to pay their own way to my shows. In fact I even pay local bands that live 5 minutes up the street an expense check. I hold a high standard in financial ethics when it comes to shows and unless God directly impresses me to bring a particular artist in, then I have to be a wise steward of the money I have.

With that said I hope that I will be able to bring in J&B to Florida in 2008. Yes I still hold to the dream that this will one day work out. As a fan there is nobody and I mean NOBODY I would rather bring in that J&B.

Tim

[carol d.]

The artists need people that work for exposure constantly, work for bookings constantly. This is what IIGuys and Petra needs.

Isn't this what John's management company will be doing, at least for John? Did you see the recent press release on John's website by Nashville Publicity Group?
The creation of IIGuys was clearly a "God thing," the guys did not initially pursue this ministry by marketing, etc.
And, why are we talking about Petra in the present tense?

If it did, demand for Petra would have never dropped "because God wants Petra".

I'm guessing that the retirement of Petra was also pursued after much prayer from John and Bob. Please don't suggest that the only reason Petra is retired is because demand dropped. Sometimes God has a specified purpose and time for certain ministries. Perhaps, demand dropped because God decided it was time. Something to ponder, anyway.

I don't think that this is a matter of faith. This is a matter of marketing. There are lots of great, spirit filled, fruitful artists, and they are broker than broke. There are lots of doofus "christian" artists that are riding the top of the wave, cause they have the right machine supporting them.

Isn't all spirit-filled ministry a matter of faith? If IIGuys was merely a business, then what you are saying is absolutely correct. They are not marketing a product just to make money, they are offering a ministry and have to cover their expenses and their time. Would we consider not paying a pastor for preaching on Sunday? No, we generally offer him a full-time job and provide enough money for him to support his family; albeit meager compared to other occupations. Treating a ministry exactly like a business is a dangerous thing and leaves little room for God to work through our faith. It's a delicate, but necessary, balance.

This "machine" supporting the "popular" artists is generally marketing a watered-down gospel. I am not convinced that today's Christian music industry is concerned about ministry and what God wants. Imo, they are marketing a product to a specific audience, who appears to be OK with what they are providing. Personally, I want spirit-filled ministry in music and it's evident when it's not there.

There are also lots of ministries out there that are raking in the dough with a twisted gospel. The amount of money a ministry brings in is no indication of God's blessings. How many of those "doofuss" artists are really in it to spread the gospel? Some are, but some aren't. Petra had their heyday just like some of the popular artists today whose time will also come to an end.

Stepping down from my soapbox.....

[brent]

Until these guys get that, it doesn't matter what God wants, because that stuff doesn't just happen, falling out of the sky.

Sorry, but I have an issue with this statement. Please don't imply that earthly things are bigger than God can handle because they aren't. He is sovereign in all things.

I said don't misunderstand, and you did.

God does NOT micromanage the operations of humans, moving us like puppets. All things do not happen for a reason, yet all things work together for good, to those that are called according to God's purpose. This is VERY different.

We operate in a global economy. There are rich nations. There are poor nations. Some people have jobs, some do not. Disposable income is where music purchases come from. At least it should be. IF someone spends bill money on music, that is their mistake. If the US goes into a recession, and it will every time houseing markets poop out, then people will not spend as much on eating out, entertainment, tithe/offerings, etc. God is not going to miraculously drop money out of heaven to all believers inspite of the economy, to make music purchases, so that bands will be able to pay their bills. He had poor churches in the NT, he has them now all over the world. The church is far more important than musicians and bands getting paid to sing.

Man DOES do things that are not inspired by God. For the sake of discussion. Consider the bridge that collapsed. Did God ordain the bridge construction? Did God make the bird poop eat the joints away on the bridge? Did God create the traffic so that the bridge would have four times as much traffic per hour as originally intended? No. MAN created this situation and carried this out via a lack of knowledge, lack of wisdom and poor management.

We get stuck in this "God" said this and "God" made this happen. While God is in control, man has the ability to do what he wants, like building houses on the side of a hill in CA, which is known for seismic activity and mud slides. That is man acting on his own initiative to do something stupid. The house will fall, the people will be on TV screaming, "Why God? Whhhhyyyyy!?"

It's not God's fault that we do not understand construction loads and bird poop acidity completely. It is not God's fault that pride, greed, lust, envy often decide realty decisions. We can't say that God is in control of such disasters. Those are things that MAN put himself in the middle of.

Now, back to music. God has never haulted time, caused the Holy Spirit to lock believers into a genre of music, or mandated styles of music in scripture as Holy. We are given liberty. We have cultural influence, personal tastes, etc. Tastes, demand and the buyers change. God is not in control of music genre choices any more than God controls what the GAP is pushing Q1 of 2008. We get to choose.

Music is prolonged speech with accompaniment. It is an art form. It is a call to war, call to worship, call to acknowledge royalty, etc, etc. It has many forms and topics. All that he asks is that we do it as unto the Lord and sing/play to each other.

God has never ordained charging people for listening to his music. God has never ordained selling Jesus in the marketplace period. This is MANS doing. The Dove Awards, GMA, etc are man's doing. So God is not in control of it directly. MAN is. This is why everything is in a tizzy. Christians are susceptable to the same fads, same trends, same economies that the world is, because we all live on the same planet, and the majority of Christians are NOT buying Christians materials only. They see, hear, read something in the world and then seek a Christian alternative.

[brent]

The artists need people that work for exposure constantly, work for bookings constantly. This is what IIGuys and Petra needs.

Isn't this what John's management company will be doing, at least for John? Did you see the recent press release on John's website by Nashville Publicity Group?
The creation of IIGuys was clearly a "God thing," the guys did not initially pursue this ministry by marketing, etc.
And, why are we talking about Petra in the present tense?

If it did, demand for Petra would have never dropped "because God wants Petra".

I'm guessing that the retirement of Petra was also pursued after much prayer from John and Bob. Please don't suggest that the only reason Petra is retired is because demand dropped. Sometimes God has a specified purpose and time for certain ministries. Perhaps, demand dropped because God decided it was time. Something to ponder, anyway.

I don't think that this is a matter of faith. This is a matter of marketing. There are lots of great, spirit filled, fruitful artists, and they are broker than broke. There are lots of doofus "christian" artists that are riding the top of the wave, cause they have the right machine supporting them.

Isn't all spirit-filled ministry a matter of faith? If IIGuys was merely a business, then what you are saying is absolutely correct. They are not marketing a product just to make money, they are offering a ministry and have to cover their expenses and their time. Would we consider not paying a pastor for preaching on Sunday? No, we generally offer him a full-time job and provide enough money for him to support his family; albeit meager compared to other occupations. Treating a ministry exactly like a business is a dangerous thing and leaves little room for God to work through our faith. It's a delicate, but necessary, balance.

This "machine" supporting the "popular" artists is generally marketing a watered-down gospel. I am not convinced that today's Christian music industry is concerned about ministry and what God wants. Imo, they are marketing a product to a specific audience, who appears to be OK with what they are providing. Personally, I want spirit-filled ministry in music and it's evident when it's not there.

There are also lots of ministries out there that are raking in the dough with a twisted gospel. The amount of money a ministry brings in is no indication of God's blessings. How many of those "doofuss" artists are really in it to spread the gospel? Some are, but some aren't. Petra had their heyday just like some of the popular artists today whose time will also come to an end.

Stepping down from my soapbox.....

Carol. I do not know the hearts of John and Bob. I know John is in a good place right now, doing what he believes is best for him, based on what he told me a few weeks ago. That's it.

You guys have no idea what it costs to run an international band and support it. Millions can be spent in a short amount of time. There are legals to worry about, and a whole slew of things that people are unaware of. That money must be there to exist.

I am telling you right now, that many ministries are REALLY worried about their existance in the near future. There are cultural, political, economic and other trends that are making it difficult to survive. It is not just bands. ALL bands secular and Christian are having to think outside of the box as well.

If money does not come, they cannot operate. Plain and simple. It costs money to exist beyond what it costs to put on a show, a service, a TV/Radio program, etc, etc.

You can have the most gifted Christian 50's Do-Whop singers, but they are not going to have longevity playing for people that could care less about that music, because that is not THEIR music. Ever watch VH-1? See what happened to the 80's metal scene when Nirvana hit the scene? It went away. The bands had to quit or reinvent, because it costs money to exist, and the money could not be raised at concerts, because the demand was gone. About the same time as grunge hit, Petra began to feel the pinch. If they had grunged, I think it would have been better for them. But they went AC/Pop and the audience walked away.

Bob and John doing worship is great. I don't think that they cost too much. BUT, I DO think that there are so many churches that will pay for them, because they have pro bands and in some cases pro, signed, worship leaders that are cool NOW. The church has done a crappy job educating about the history of Christian music, and thus there is little knowledge of Petra and the 2Guys in many denominations. Many denominations have churches that roll the membership every 5 years and pastoral staff every 2 years. So, it must be an ongoing process. Otherwise the churches remain full of people that know all of the P&W stuff on Sunday, and secular music M-F.

I respect your musical preference. But understand that NOBODY entrenched in sin with the middle finger aimed toward heaven is going to pay $10-15 to listen to a band preach at them. It is not going to happen on the mass scale. Some bands sing truth. You call it watered down. It is truth nonetheless. Milk. It is truth that can appeal to the masses with millions of political, social and religious experiences/beliefs. Some of this music is utter crap I agree. But some of it inspires thought. This is what Jesus did often. He did not always thump the truth in like a snot slingin' independent baptist. It's all about baby steps. Remember. We do not all have the same ministry either. The meat is in the bible and at church. If there is a band serving it up, then it will almost always have a smaller audience, because that is not where the majority of US Christians are.

[gman]

Brent said:

Did God ordain the bridge construction? Did God make the bird poop eat the joints away on the bridge? Did God create the traffic so that the bridge would have four times as much traffic per hour as originally intended? No. MAN created this situation and carried this out via a lack of knowledge, lack of wisdom and poor management.

I'm with ya. Personally, I'm of the opinion that while God could certainly cause things to happen that is not always case. I think, that while in his mercy he would like to stop every mishap and he will stop some, perhaps the last accident you narrowly avoided, in his justice because the world is fallen, he must pull his hand back and allow some things to happen.
Maybe I'm wrong. That's my personal, easy explanation for why bad things happen to good people; why there is suffering and circumstances in this life that don't make sense.

GMan

[petranite]

Well put brent.