2 Guys tour dates

[petranite]

WARNING: Me just shooting from the top of my head

I just say again the original problem was promoters weren't booking 2guys because of asking price. How is that the promoters problem? There are hundreds of options in the music/worship/concert/etc... world and how does the problem get solved. I go back to my original assertion that

A. Keep asking price the same and book no shows.
B. Lower asking prices

You can add C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K if you want but those are the two main options. If they stick with A then don't get upset when we don't book shows all over the US. And at the same time I won't be upset either. This is the first time this aspect of the ministry has really been addressed on this forum. Blame Wayne for nose diving the band business wise. That's fair, everytime I've been around the guy he was a jerk, so what that's Wayne we all know that. Sue vs. Wayne hmmm easy choice SUE WINS SUE WINS!!! I could turn around and say why don't J&B live on faith and come for a love offering, but there is no way I would ever expect that from them or anybody. Yet as a promoter I am expected to do all the faith living. If we both live by faith in this then I will cover the expenses and split the profits (if there are any) with J&B. they would be slow to agree to that for an entire tour I'm sure.

One things for sure this has been a very good conversation about the financial economics of the concert business. It is a very taboo subject to talk specifics about artists honorariums in the christian music scene. When is the last time you saw anyone publish tour revenue for christian bands? yet we do it every year for secular bands on pollstar.com, forbes, and rolling stone magazine. It's because GMA wants an illusion of "ministry" only but there are several bands and labels making good money. If not why would Petra/Newsboys/Amy grant/ or any other big "christian" artist raise their prices just because they are popular. I know, I know BIGGER LIGHTING, BETTER SOUND, LARGER PRODUCTION, blah blah blah. We all no the answers and I honestly don't think anybody on this board has a problem with artists being paid whatever they get (if they can get it) If J&B get 100k for a show shouldn't we all be happy that they were blessed? YES!
Last instance Barlow Girl used to play for $1,500 when they first got popular. Good luck taking care of their rider fulfillemt for $1500 today. they're outrageous but good for them if people are willing to pay it. But guess what churches and promoters are bending over backward to accomodate their "Van Halen" demands because the market drives the price and a promoter can recoup the money. Sad but true.
Tim

[BForm]

Wow. This has been one of the heaviest discussions on this board in a long time. Reminds me of the good ol' days.

First, I have to say that the discussion about God's sovereignty canno possibly be dealt with properly on a thread like this. However, I have to say that I believe the methods I've seen for trying to get God "off the hook" fall flat when you consider things like tsunamies the call 100,000 people. God's sovereignty over all things is all over the pages of scripture. Consider Joseph telling his brothers "You MEANT it for evil but God MEANT it for good." Peter tells us in ACTS the God ordained the very acts of evil men to bring about Christ's death. At one and the same time this was a horribly evil event, and an incredibly beautiful event.

If you really want to dive into this issue go to John Piper's website www.desiringGod.org and search for two of my favorite articles:

Are There Two Wills in God?

and

Is God less Glorious for Ordaining the Evil Be?
(A Discussion on the theology of Jonathan Edwards)

But let me weigh in on this ministry/music discussion. I love Petra, IIGuys and John Schlitt's music. A few years back when I easily had the funds to do it, I really considered bringing Petra in for a free show in a very public location as a ministry to the community. However, I have felt for some time that putting on a concert and calling it ministry was a terrible waste of money. Consider what else you can do with $5,000:

1) Build a church in Kenya and Tanzania and pay a full-time pastor for 2 years.
2) Pay for multiple "indigenous" missionaries in a foreign country to operate for several years.
3) Pay for about 2500 native language bibles to be distributed in a country where the gospel is progressing so quickly there are barely enough bibles for Pastors.

Or.....I could put on a Christian rock concert and draw maybe 1,000 people for one night with less than 10% of them being unchurched. I simply could not justify this before God without admitting to Him that it was just something I would really wanted to do because it was fun.

Petranite's point was well taken by me. Why should the promoters do all the giving and be expected to do all the excersizing of faith? If it really is ministry then let's put together a love offering ministry where the guys take what God provides as we go?

[brent]

My post was hacked somehow.

I do believe in an omniscient, soveriegn God. But you are missing the point. We have the CHOICE to sin. We have the CHOICE to like different styles of music. God can be in control without MAKING us do make that choice.

In the past I was in control of some businesses, yet I did not have mindless robots for employees. They operated under my supervision. Sometimes I let them make mistakes to help them grow, but they had freedom to do their job according to their gifting and area of expertise. I rule over my house. I do not run a dictatorship, but I am over it and responsible for it.

THAT is how God is. God is a ruler, a father. He IS THE Father, but you get what I mean. He did not MAKE or CAUSE man to stumble. He provides the way out. That is HIS way. No matter what we do, his children can return to him. If he was a control freak, then children would never leave, because they would not have the choice.

Again, my point is all things do NOT have a reason, yet ALL things work together for good to THOSE CALLED. Those statements are scriptural.

Of course God knows everything that can and will happen. But that does not mean that he endorses every event. God KNOWS some doctor is going to suck the brains out of a baby. It is not GODS will that ANY should perish and that ALL men should come to him. Those are HIS words. But men do perish and few will come. God does not work against himself. But, God allows for mankind to reap what it sows.

God allows us to choose clothing, food, friends, mates, music, etc. It is personal preference. None of that is dictated by scripture and verified by the Holy Spirit. Why try to over-spiritualize these things?

[separateunion]

Until these guys get that, it doesn't matter what God wants, because that stuff doesn't just happen, falling out of the sky.

God does NOT micromanage the operations of humans, moving us like puppets. All things do not happen for a reason, yet all things work together for good, to those that are called according to God's purpose. This is VERY different.

I'm sorry that you do not believe in an omniscient, sovereign God, but I do.

[separateunion]

Is God in control of our sin and shortcomings?

Yes.

Did God make us for the purpose of sinning?

In a sense, yes. It was part of His ultimate plan. It's not like God put man on earth and when man sinned, God said, "Well gee golly, I just didn't see that one coming. Time for Plan B!"

Did God create the sin that he cannot have before him? No.

If God is the only one in the universe with the power to create, who created sin? Man? I highly doubt it. Sin was already in place before man was created, man just "unleashed" sin into the world when he disobeyed God.

Problems from self inflicted situations can bring people closer to God. But we cannot blame him for reaping seed we have sown.

This has nothing to do with blaming God.

We are merely fulfilling what he said would happen.

Exactly! We are playing out what he already put in place long before we were created.

The logic expressed by some would be the equivilant of saying God is in charge so ALL things are from God.

So you do not believe in an omnipotent God? That's kinda scary...

As we saw in CA, some kid sinned, played with matches, and the Santa Ana winds took it from there. Was that judgement or just God's creation doing what it does, or both?

It was both, but God set the situation in motion.

Since the winds are a byproduct of God's creation, was it controlled directly by God? I don't know if you can say that God sent fire directly, but some draw that conclusion.

It's not a matter of God setting the fire directly, it's a matter of God already knowing it would happen and predestining it to happen.

So soveriegn God is not a puppet master. He is a loving God that wants genuine love and fellowship by choice, and dedicated service by obligation out of love. Very different from God making it happen.

Actually it's not. What you're saying is there are things that are out of God's control because God is not a "puppet master" and what I'm saying is God knows and preordains all things to happen, therefore, He is in control of all of His creation.

[brent]

You chopped my responses so that they are out of context.

[crossways]

Did God make us for the purpose of sinning?

In a sense, yes. It was part of His ultimate plan. It's not like God put man on earth and when man sinned, God said, "Well gee golly, I just didn't see that one coming. Time for Plan B!"

Whoa der! No, no, no. God made us with the distinct purpose for being loved by Him, and for worshipping, and loving God.

There is a HUGE distinction that needs to be made between KNOWING and WILLING something to happen.

God's will for us was to leave in perfect peace with Him in the Garden of Eden, where no pain or sorrow would ever meet us. That is still His plan and it will be carried out when we are with Him for eternitity.

Of course if God is omnicient then He knew we would fall from Grace, but the fact that we did fall from gracewas not HIS plan. It was OUR(man's) willfulness. In fact God DID Give man another chance by starting over with as good a man as there was on the earth....NOAH.

God made provision for us time and again...
and on a side note. SeperateUnion - It is hard to follow your argument with Brent with you have diced up his post. These arguments/posts NEED to be taken in context.
TO PETRA----->

However...the ONLY ones who can really know if carrying out this ministry is in God's Will, is Bob and John. If this is what God wants then He WILL make a way...even when there seems to be no way.

[crossways]

But let me weigh in on this ministry/music discussion. I love Petra, IIGuys and John Schlitt's music. A few years back when I easily had the funds to do it, I really considered bringing Petra in for a free show in a very public location as a ministry to the community. However, I have felt for some time that putting on a concert and calling it ministry was a terrible waste of money. Consider what else you can do with $5,000:

1) Build a church in Kenya and Tanzania and pay a full-time pastor for 2 years.
2) Pay for multiple "indigenous" missionaries in a foreign country to operate for several years.
3) Pay for about 2500 native language bibles to be distributed in a country where the gospel is progressing so quickly there are barely enough bibles for Pastors.

Or.....I could put on a Christian rock concert and draw maybe 1,000 people for one night with less than 10% of them being unchurched. I simply could not justify this before God without admitting to Him that it was just something I would really wanted to do because it was fun.

YES, YES, YES!!! On almost all points.

The thing with churches doing these concerts...especially as FREE concerts and absorbing all the cost is that the money could be used more effectivlely in so many other areas.

And if I beg 1000 people to come see Petra or II Guys and they have a good time....will that last as much as people who are desperate for a church building, a pastor....GOD'S WORD and don't have it due to where they live?

I don't know what the answer is really for Bob and John, but I know that God does and He will reveal something great in time!

Petranite's point was well taken by me. Why should the promoters do all the giving and be expected to do all the excersizing of faith? If it really is ministry then let's put together a love offering ministry where the guys take what God provides as we go?

Well if it is a concert that is charging admission, the promoter takes the risk, because they are the ones that stand to profit. If they don't stand to make a profit then why do it at all?

[petranite]

Wow, the promoter takes the risk because we charge tickets? We have to charge tickets because the Artist is CHARGING us $3,000-$5,000 for 1 night. If that wasn't the case then we would be in a whole new world. Take Greg X Volz for instance he does services all the time for love offerings. As a promoter I will assume the responsibility and pay ALL his expenses. The artist then takes the risk and trusts that people follow their heart,God, etc and give to them. This is done by missionaries, evangelists, teachers, pastors all over the world but an Artist/ministry is expected to have their expenses paid for and every wish they have in a rider plus get another $1000-25000. This is the system man has built. There is ABSOLUTELY no risk on the artists part once the contract is signed other than an act of God or sickness and even in the cases they usually keep the deposit and the promoter is stiffed for that bill plus any other money that has been spent up to that point on promotion, venue deposits, etc. The promoter is legally on the hook for everything. If there is a promoter out there on this board who only does christian shows and that is your full time living then speak up please. I challenge that it is not gonna happen because it is virtually impossible to do.

Snapshot Look Into The Taboo World Of Promotion

Artist says "Pay for my transportation, food, lights, sound, rider, hotel, airfare, promote me everywhere, venue, security, event insurance, provide people to sell my merchandise and oh ya don't forget the M&M's, plus the extra $2,000 fee and by the way don't complain about my asking fee's after all don't you know this is a ministry."

Promoter says "Yah!! I get to invest thousands of dollars so I can maybe make a few hundred that I will more than likely lose on the next show and I get to be seen as heartless, faithless, greedy and just out for money and the bottom line."

Now I will say this after that rant and not all too far from the truth snapshot. Are all artists this way? ABSOLUTLEY NOT. There are bad artists and there are bad promoters however I challenge this. 99% of signed artists subscribe to the above. Just pick up your phone and call ANY managment agency and ask if you can book there artist for a one off show for just expenses and NO guarantee. Good Luck. After 12 years I have only booked 4 shows with this agreement. Phillips, Craig & Dean, Miss Angie, Cindy Morgan & The Huntingtons. I'm not saying others don't but in 12 years that's the only ones so far that have done it for me. I will say that in EVERY case the artist walked away with money and I didn't lose anything. Specifically Miss Angie ($800.00) Huntingtons ($750) Cindy Morgan ($4,300) P,C&D ($7,600) and that money was after ALL expenses were paid and you know how much I took in profit from all those shows combined $0.00.

This is a lot to think about. And on a side note. To pick apart someones post half line by half line out of context is extremely unfair to Brent or anybody else.

To wrap up. This is the promotion "business", it's the way it works. It is very lopsided in the christian music scene. I know that just a couple bad shows and bad moves and it will DESTROY the possibility of doing ANY shows at all because I would be wiped out financially.

Tim

[crossways]

Wow, the promoter takes the risk because we charge tickets? We have to charge tickets because the Artist is CHARGING us $3,000-$5,000 for 1 night. If that wasn't the case then we would be in a whole new world. Take Greg X Volz for instance he does services all the time for love offerings. As a promoter I will assume the responsibility and pay ALL his expenses. The artist then takes the risk and trusts that people follow their heart,God, etc and give to them. This is done by missionaries, evangelists, teachers, pastors all over the world but an Artist/ministry is expected to have their expenses paid for and every wish they have in a rider plus get another $1000-25000. This is the system man has built. There is ABSOLUTELY no risk on the artists part once the contract is signed other than an act of God or sickness and even in the cases they usually keep the deposit and the promoter is stiffed for that bill plus any other money that has been spent up to that point on promotion, venue deposits, etc. The promoter is legally on the hook for everything. If there is a promoter out there on this board who only does christian shows and that is your full time living then speak up please. I challenge that it is not gonna happen because it is virtually impossible to do.

Snapshot Look Into The Taboo World Of Promotion

Artist says "Pay for my transportation, food, lights, sound, rider, hotel, airfare, promote me everywhere, venue, security, event insurance, provide people to sell my merchandise and oh ya don't forget the M&M's, plus the extra $2,000 fee and by the way don't complain about my asking fee's after all don't you know this is a ministry."

Promoter says "Yah!! I get to invest thousands of dollars so I can maybe make a few hundred that I will more than likely lose on the next show and I get to be seen as heartless, faithless, greedy and just out for money and the bottom line."

Now I will say this after that rant and not all too far from the truth snapshot. Are all artists this way? ABSOLUTLEY NOT. There are bad artists and there are bad promoters however I challenge this. 99% of signed artists subscribe to the above. Just pick up your phone and call ANY managment agency and ask if you can book there artist for a one off show for just expenses and NO guarantee. Good Luck. After 12 years I have only booked 4 shows with this agreement. Phillips, Craig & Dean, Miss Angie, Cindy Morgan & The Huntingtons. I'm not saying others don't but in 12 years that's the only ones so far that have done it for me. I will say that in EVERY case the artist walked away with money and I didn't lose anything. Specifically Miss Angie ($800.00) Huntingtons ($750) Cindy Morgan ($4,300) P,C&D ($7,600) and that money was after ALL expenses were paid and you know how much I took in profit from all those shows combined $0.00.

This is a lot to think about. And on a side note. To pick apart someones post half line by half line out of context is extremely unfair to Brent or anybody else.

To wrap up. This is the promotion "business", it's the way it works. It is very lopsided in the christian music scene. I know that just a couple bad shows and bad moves and it will DESTROY the possibility of doing ANY shows at all because I would be wiped out financially.

Tim

Tim,

I absolutely stand by my comment that the promoter takes all the risk.

It is supposed to be a BUSINESS! If you don't think that an artist will sell tickets then DON'T BOOK THEM!

Why should an artist assume risk, when they have no control over promotion (which most of the time is sadly UNDERDONE), or any of the rest of the event.

When you are a promoter and contact an artist you are BUYING a product. It's up to you to decide whether or not you are buying the right right product for you. The artist is giving you exactly what they say they will. A good musical event. And this is what they want for it. Either it's worth it, or it's not.

It's a lot like a car dealer. The local Ford place assumes the risk in buying the cars he puts on his lot. It's up to him to decide how many he thinks he can sell, and what options they should have, etc.

The promoter should be a very savvy business man and make descsions that are based on research and market analysis.

If you are promoting shows for the good of your area....IOW you don't care about making money, then you better find some backers to invest in them.

[petranite]

Crossways Thank you for making my point. Go back to the beginning of this discussion and you will find the original point was that the 2guys tour dates have "ground to a hault" because promoters were turned off by the asking price. I'm not dumb I know I'm buying a "product" as a promoter. Let me sum this up. Personally I have promoted single shows in the $0-$150,000 range in christian music and my top show came in at 750k for a secular show. The 150k show was a multiple artist event by the way. Now the problem was 2guys aren't booking shows because the asking price is too high. Is that my problem NO. As a matter of fact you put it so nice when you said if it's not worth it don't book it. Well guess what I haven't booked it. BIG SHOCKER I'm not the only one. My thing is people shouldn't blame it on the promoter. Read all my posts as a whole.I'm trying to show why a promoter would not book 2guys. I too think it is more business than ministry. However, how many times do you here that on this board? Not often when it comes to booking. It's always refered to as a "ministry" As to an artist having no control over the rest of the event that's news to me. Almost Every contract I have states the artist/managment has "Complete" control over who else plays and who MC's and what equipment is used as well as merchandise and sound check, etc, etc, etc....

Simply put. If people don't book because the price is too high then lower the price or don't play and don't complain or pass the blame. It's a two way street here.

[crossways]

Sorry for the misunderstanding Tim.

Of course promoters should NOT be expected to bring in acts, just because a few die hard fans want them to. Or even because of how great a ministry the band has been.

There is real money at stake that is very easily lost if the draw for the event is not good enough.

I also don't think that II Guys should ask more or less for their shows. They should ask what they need to.

Like you said, It's up to all parties involved to weigh the risks and potential and make a decision.

[sue d.]

Now the problem was 2guys aren't booking shows because the asking price is too high

Again, I'll ask:

WHAT do YOU consider a reasonable price for II Guys? I still haven't heard a figure, and I'm curious... was that $1000 scenario still too high in your opinion?

I too think it is more business than ministry. However, how many times do you here that on this board? Not often when it comes to booking

If you make a living from your ministry and have bills to pay - then naturally business aspects also come in to play. It has to unless you're independently wealthy.

A CHURCH is also a business - it employs a pastor(s), secretary(s), worship leader(s), etc. They all make a living - they get paid - for their services to the church.

But does anyone ever call a CHURCH a business? No.... but in reality, a church is also a business if you use the same model & reasoning.

Almost Every contract I have states the artist/managment has "Complete" control over who else plays and who MC's and what equipment is used as well as merchandise and sound check, etc, etc, etc....

Yes. But an artist does NOT have control over advertising, the quality of advertising nor the amount. It's in most riders, but the enforcement thereof prior to the concert is not really possible.

And advertising more than anything, will either make or break a show, ESPECIALLY if the artist is coming on a LOVE OFFERING basis.

If advertising is sketchy or non-existent -- if no one knows about the show -- then the artist (along with the promoter) just took a bad hit in the pocketbook.

Going out on a love offering basis with no guarantees is very risky to the artist.

Take Greg X Volz for instance he does services all the time for love offerings

You can do that if you are financially set. If not, it comes back (in 'wordly terms') to getting paid for a service that's provided.

[crossways]

If you make a living from your ministry and have bills to pay - then naturally business aspects also come in to play. It has to unless you're independently wealthy.

A CHURCH is also a business - it employs a pastor(s), secretary(s), worship leader(s), etc. They all make a living - they get paid - for their services to the church.

But does anyone ever call a CHURCH a business? No.... but in reality, a church is also a business if you use the same model & reasoning.

Big HUGE difference. The church is the body of Christ. It has many tasks and responsibilities, from teaching, preaching, the Gospel...aiding the poor, worship, etc. I know that I am all over the place here, but you hopefully get the drift.

A "persons" ministry is not equal to that of the church - though they can have the same goals at times.

A church should NEVER function as a business. Business attempt to have a profit at the end of the month.

Churches set out a budget and hopefully spend every penny on what the Lord has called them to.

Yes. But an artist does NOT have control over advertising, the quality of advertising nor the amount. It's in most riders, but the enforcement thereof prior to the concert is not really possible.

And advertising more than anything, will either make or break a show, ESPECIALLY if the artist is coming on a LOVE OFFERING basis.

If advertising is sketchy or non-existent -- if no one knows about the show -- then the artist (along with the promoter) just took a bad hit in the pocketbook.

Going out on a love offering basis with no guarantees is very risky to the artist.

AMEN

I agree 100%
You would never go to work and say, "Hey, this week I want you guys in the front office to take a collection of what you feel led to pay me this week."

The band/musician has expenses in doing a show, plus what they need to earn on top of that.

A garunteed paycheck is a MUST!

[BForm]

Did God make us for the purpose of sinning?

In a sense, yes. It was part of His ultimate plan. It's not like God put man on earth and when man sinned, God said, "Well gee golly, I just didn't see that one coming. Time for Plan B!"

Whoa der! No, no, no. God made us with the distinct purpose for being loved by Him, and for worshipping, and loving God.

Crossway, can you show me from the scriptures where this is clearly given as the ultimate purpose for creation? I had assumed this was true for the first 20 years of my Christian life because it's what I had always heard. However, if you look to the scriptures for the answer to this it becomes clear that the ultimate purpose for all things is for God's glory. God desired to put His glory on display. In fact two of the reasons that Jesus died on the cross are almost never spoken of in the modern church:

1) To create worshipers for His Father.
2) To create "for HIMSELF a people zealous for good works."

We prefer to keep it all about MEEEEE!

But like I said before, the issue of God's sovereignty, man's free will, etc., cannot possibly be dealt with fairly and completely in a thread like this. But if we really want to try maybe we should create another thread in the "other topics" category and continue. I'm game.

The real reason behind this thread was why II Guys isn't getting more bookings, which led to the discussion about ministry vs. business models. Sue, I have to say that in the end there is a huge gulf between traditional business models and ministry. If our goals are kingdom focused, we may invest money in ministry even though the "payback" will not be know until eternity comes. I may invest $50,000 in mission work and not expect one dime of financial payback because the missionaries are not providing a service that I expect to profit financially from.

This again leads to the question of whether or not big concert events are the best way to invest money geared towards building the kingdom. My answer is definitely not. I don't have a problem with churches or organizations putting on free "appreciation" concerts. I hope II Guys or John (solo) can fill their calenders with events like that. However, if winning the lost is what your looking to do, there is no replacement for the God ordained "foolishness of preaching" in the context of a community of believers that demonstrates the fruit of the Spirit. When we have this we will have the passion to go into the world and the Holy Spirit will bring them across our paths. We won't have to try to use Six Flags Over Jesus to draw them in.

Jesus prayer in John 17 shows that it is ultimately our love for one another that will draw people into the kingdom, not big concert events. They need to witness real live examples of a community loving one another and the world even when your wife isn't what she should be, your boss rips you off, and your neighbor mocks and ridicules you. We've so over programmed the life of the church that it has become sterile. Programmed demonstrations of love like free car washes, free 3 rate circuses, comedians, etc. will never replace spontaneous real life displays. Even Billy Graham has gone on record saying that he believed as much as 85% of the people making professions of faith at his crusades are false converts. I truly believe that we will one day find out that even the big expensive revival events were not used by God to the extent that everyone assumes.

In the end, I hope John & Bob have tremendous success in the future. I'd love to see them again and, if God provides for it, I will buy everything they put out. But I just can't see the cost of a concert being a great investment for the sake of ministry. God has always used the simple things, the unimpressive things to build His kingdom.